Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Marx and anti-semitism

Why would he make such a banal point? Like saying "point at a solidarity"?!

Well he didn't. He didn't say 'empirical being' he said 'empirical essence'.

articul8 said:
You're confusing terms here - particularity is not synonymous with contingency.

Being is contingent. It's what just exists without an explanatory framework. It's not particularity but in this case it needs to be because there is no other thing it could be. In Hegel Pure existence = pure nothing.
 
I don't know if they are accurate. They sound perfectly plausible. If the big money lenders are pre-dominantly Jewish, why not say it? Why not use this fact as a criticism of Judaism? It helps the Jewish worker to see there is no salvation in Jewish nationalism.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any attempt to persuade Jewish workers not to support Jewish bosses, as you very well know. It simply presents Jews - not just a few rich Jews, but Jews in general, "the children of Judah" - as sinister and powerful usurers.
 
I don't know whether the quote is authentic, but I have no great reason to think it isn't. However, I can't find it on the Marxist Internet Archive. It's also clearly taken out of a context. Not that I think that changes it's tone or meaning, but I suspect that this quote is more general than the rest of the article. Marx is usually much more precise than this. I admit that that quote in itself is open to anti-semitic interpretation.
 
It has absolutely nothing to do with any attempt to persuade Jewish workers not to support Jewish bosses, as you very well know. It simply presents Jews - not just a few rich Jews, but Jews in general, "the children of Judah" - as sinister and powerful usurers.

The fortunes amassed by these loanmongers are immense, but the wrongs and sufferings thus entailed on the people and the encouragement thus afforded to their oppressors still remain to be told.

It's not about Jews in general, it's about Jewish loanmongers. It's a satire on their Judaism and it's implicitly (surely there is more to this article that follows) an expose on their activities.
 
It's not about Jews in general, it's about Jewish loanmongers. It's a satire on their Judaism and it's implicitly (surely there is more to this article that follows) an expose on their activities.

It's also a comment on the sad fact that in proto-Germany, in much of Europe and the Russian empire, Jews were still restricted in their rights, and sometimes stuck to "the old trades" that had been permitted to them for the previous thousand years. Marx's expose was also of the structures within which Jews were made to function.
 
It's also a comment on the sad fact that in proto-Germany, in much of Europe and the Russian empire, Jews were still restricted in their rights, and sometimes stuck to "the old trades" that had been permitted to them for the previous thousand years.

The most prominent of which was of course usury, aka capitalism. Christians created capitalism in creating "the Jew."
 
Well he didn't. He didn't say 'empirical being' he said 'empirical essence'.

What he wrote was "empirische Wesen" which means empirical historical existence (ie. what has been) as much as it means empirical "essence".

Being is contingent. It's what just exists without an explanatory framework. It's not particularity but in this case it needs to be because there is no other thing it could be. In Hegel Pure existence = pure nothing.

Being as such means nothing in particular, but it is both contingent and necessary from the point of view of Geist according to Hegel.

Anyway, I don't think there's too much difference between the interpretations - we agree that Marx is clearly not talking about some ahistorical ontological essence of "the Jews" but of the empirical construction/figuration of the Jew in class society.
 
Nothing is above criticism (except possibly certain moderators on certain message boards).

Do you regard Marx's comments, quoted above, as an even vaguely accurate or fair-minded account of Jews and what they do?

In fact, do the comments have any value other than having provided some grumpy old sod the opportunity to vent his anti-semitic spleen?

OK after googling away I have found a book called the Diaspora Entrepreneurial Networks which sites this article. The authors Ina Baghdiantz McCabe, Gelina Harlaftis and Iōanna Pepelasē Minoglou see it as "anti-semitic" and "overstated" but nevertheless "with respect to family ties [between Jew loan mongers in Europe] he [Marx] has a point, as we shall see, and he was well-informed, as van den Berg (1992: 135-41) has shown."

http://books.google.com/books?id=yd0tfH6KrrIC&pg=PA196&dq="the+russian+loan"+marx&lr=#PPA196,M1

So there is no reason to assume that it is inaccurate, and these authors at least see some value in it. Whether it is a fair-minded is perhaps open to question. However it is not an account of Jews and what they do, it is explicitly an account of "loan-mongering Jews of Europe".

Furthermore, let's look at this sentence:
The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish moneychangers out of the temple, and that the moneychangers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence.

At a glance, the religious immagery and the suggestion of historical continuity might bring to mind anti-semitic tracts such as the Protocols of Zion. But if you look at what Marx says, he is denying any profound ahistorical nature of Judaism - ie. the similarities between the moneychangers in Christ's time and the moneychangers of Marx's age "is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence". Marx continues by pointing out that others (non-Jews) engage in loan-mongering but that it is the organisation of Jews which makes them strong. This last is confirmed by McCabe et al.

The difference with anti-semitism is that it spreads false rumours - it tells demonstrably false lies. It exagerates the economic and political role of Jewry rather than documenting it. Notice that nobody has criticised the factual content of the article. The anti-semite presents Judaism as an ahistoric entity imposing itself on the world - a thesis directly opposed to Marx's historical materialism. Notice here that Marx is not an anti-semite for far more important reasons than platitudes about a commitment to an egalitarian communist future, rather the very core of Marx's theory makes a mokery of anti-semitic ideas.

The problem with this modern politically correct anti-racism is that it neglects content in favour of style. It neglects real oppression in favour of policing language. The modern zionist distracts from the very real and brutal oppression of Palastinians by focusing attention on the mere words of the oppressed (Hamas etc.)
 
There's no point in denying the pivotal role of the Jews in developing capitalism, or the influence of Judaism on the nature of capital. Nor is there any point in denying the central role played by Jews in European Communism. And nor is there any point in denying a causal relation between these dialectical antitheses.
 
Anyway, I don't think there's too much difference between the interpretations - we agree that Marx is clearly not talking about some ahistorical ontological essence of "the Jews" but of the empirical construction/figuration of the Jew in class society.

We are just quibling of course! ;)

However, I do think that the Hegelian doctrine of essence is of key importance in the intellectual development of both Marx and Engels. For example Marxists sometimes tend to see the working class as merely a technical category - people who sell their labour for a wage. Thus neglecting working class politics and culture in favour of economism. The working class is seen as an object - a collection of people who by their position in society are sympthatic to the ideas of the socialists - rather than seeing the working class as a world historic subject.
 
Can you expand a bit on the causal nature? Genuinely interested BTW. :)

It's less complicated than it might sound. All I meant was that capitalism brings Communism into being as its antithesis, so that if we accept that the nature of capitalism is determined by Judaism we must accept the same of Communism.

The trouble with saying this, of course, is that Hitler said it, loudly and often. That infamous speech about the "two brothers"--Moishe and Isadore iirc. But it would be giving Hitler too much influence to allow that to prevent us from discussing the matter.
 
There's no point in denying the pivotal role of the Jews in developing capitalism, or the influence of Judaism on the nature of capital. Nor is there any point in denying the central role played by Jews in European Communism. And nor is there any point in denying a causal relation between these dialectical antitheses.

I wouldn't deny the role of Jews in developing capitalism. I see no reason to say that this was a pivotal role. You neglect the role of merchant capital.

I don't think there is any influence of Judaism on the nature of capital. I think this is occult nonsense.

I wouldn't deny the central role played by Jews in European Communism.

I've gone into the problems with your version of dialectics before. It wasn't rewarding for either of us.
 
I wouldn't deny the role of Jews in developing capitalism. I see no reason to say that this was a pivotal role. You neglect the role of merchant capital.

Yes I do, because I argue that capitalism as Marx understood it is co-terminous with usury. I take it that no-one would deny the pivotal role of Jews in developing usury?
 
How else could one possibly define the proletariat (as distinct from the "working class")?

That is how you would define the indivdual proletarian. I don't think there is any distinction between the proletariat and the working class.
 
That is how you would define the indivdual proletarian. I don't think there is any distinction between the proletariat and the working class.

I'd say that "working class" is a subjective category. A solicitor or a university professor is clearly not "working class." But the "proletariat" is an objective category, which includes all who exchange their labor-power for wages. So Marx was correct in predicting that the proletariat would become the universal class.
 
Yes I do, because I argue that capitalism as Marx understood it is co-terminous with usury. I take it that no-one would deny the pivotal role of Jews in developing usury?

The role of banking capital in the economy cannot be looked at in the abstract. Its very related to merchant capital. One morphs into the other and then into industrial capital and so on. I can see no reason at all to think that Marx understood capitalism as co-terminous with usury nor that for Marx "the Jews" are a trope for capital. These are very strange things to assert.
 
I'd say that "working class" is a subjective category. A solicitor or a university professor is clearly not "working class." But the "proletariat" is an objective category, which includes all who exchange their labor-power for wages. So Marx was correct in predicting that the proletariat would become the universal class.

I'm just going by the Communist Manefesto. Marx and Engels refer to the proletariat as a "labouring class".
 
The role of banking capital in the economy cannot be looked at in the abstract. Its very related to merchant capital. One morphs into the other and then into industrial capital and so on. I can see no reason at all to think that Marx understood capitalism as co-terminous with usury nor that for Marx "the Jews" are a trope for capital. These are very strange things to assert.

And yet I do assert them. Obviously these are questions beyond the scope of instant-reply message-board debate, but just look at how capitalism has developed. Has it not shifted from merchant, through industrial, to usorious? Is usury not the postmodern form of capital?
 
A small but very important point, usually overlooked - the proletariat, properly defined, isn't simply those engaged in wage labour but those who have no choice but to engage in wage labour. I wonder why this is so often 'forgotten'?
 
And yet I do assert them. Obviously these are questions beyond the scope of instant-reply message-board debate, but just look at how capitalism has developed. Has it not shifted from merchant, through industrial, to usorious? Is usury not the postmodern form of capital?

Yes you could say that. However, I would look at Hilferding, Luxemberg and Lenin for analyses of this phenonmenon rather than Marx.
 
A small but very important point, usually overlooked - the proletariat, properly defined, isn't simply those engaged in wage labour but those who have no choice but to engage in wage labour. I wonder why this is so often 'forgotten'?

A good point, but not one which fundamentally alters the trajectory of the proletariat towards universality. Consider how many people have no choice but to engage in wage-labor today as compared to 100 years ago. The days of the small private income are behind us are they not?
 
A good point, but not one which fundamentally alters the trajectory of the proletariat towards universality. Consider how many people have no choice but to engage in wage-labor today as compared to 100 years ago. The days of the small private income are behind us are they not?
Are there more today? Genuine question – I don't know.
 
A small but very important point, usually overlooked - the proletariat, properly defined, isn't simply those engaged in wage labour but those who have no choice but to engage in wage labour. I wonder why this is so often 'forgotten'?

That is important, not least in understanding that the unemployed are part of the working class.

I think that some groups - the SWP a decade or two ago springs to mind - make a fetish of the 'point of production'.
 
Yes you could say that. However, I would look at Hilferding, Luxemberg and Lenin for analyses of this phenonmenon rather than Marx.

So would most people, and that is a tragedy of world-historical proportions. You would do better to move from Marx through Lukacs to Adorno and Debord.
 
Back
Top Bottom