Mark Steel - What's Going On?

[electric.avenue]

I think travel does in general broaden the mind - that's just my own experience, and the experience of people I've met. I know this is a huge bone of contention however, but it is usually people who have never really travelled that insist that travel does not broaden the mind. A bit like people who have never had children saying that children do not change your life and outlook. I'm not trying to claim that a bit of travelling would change a raving bigot into somebody more broad minded, but I still reckon that travel gives you something that nothing else can - otherwise, why do it?

I'm not saying that people who have never travelled are necessarily narrow minded, but I do think they are more prone to stereotyping people of other nationalities, cos the popular stereotypes are usually all they have to go on. Again, this is just my own observation. They also seem more fearful/anxious about other languages, and have this idea that English is somehow more central and fundamental than other languages. I do think that it is a peculiarly British/Anglo Saxon thing that people see the learning of other languages as either undesirable or unattainable.

I agree that travel costs can be prohibitive - no argument there. But this whole debate started as an aside about Mark Steel's book, about some things he said that surprised me a bit. I wouldn't have thought that Mark would be short of the money to see a few places. Some of the most insular people I've met were not short of the money to travel.

I don't see travel as being some sort of qualification/measure of being a decent human being. I just reckon that you can't get away from the fact that if you haven't travelled, you are a bit more insular, that's all.

And one of the points I'm making is that I am baffled by the apparently insular attitudes of some British socialists who claim to be internationalists. I wouldn't describe Mark Steel as insular, but it's just that one or two of the things he said seemed very Britocentric.

 

[glenquagmire]

Such as what? I would be interested to know how he used "foreign holidays" and "abroad" in a Britocentric manner.

Are you really saying that the "insular attitudes of some British socialists who claim to be internationalists" are exemplified by their holidaying in Britain rather than abroad? Weird.

Maybe I'm a homophobe for not wanting to have sex with a man, and anyone who doesn't have a rainbow collection of friends is a racist? After all, they are perfectly able to go out and befriend black people if they wanted to.

 

[electric.avenue]

Well, it just seems a bit quaint for an internationalist to refer to a holiday outside the UK as a "foreign holiday" as if anywhere outside the UK were somehow terribly alien. OK, that on it's own is not that significant, but it's just other things here and there that surprise me, eg: at one point he talks about being on a train from Glasgow to London, and at Brum the driver got off, saying "fuck this". Mark says "Being English, we all stayed on ..." Just strikes me as a bit Anglocentric that Mark assumes that everybody on the train must be English, and also that English people behave in a stereotyped kind of way that people of other nationalities would not.

No, I'm not saying that insular attitudes are exemplified by where people go on holiday. More from the attitudes that they express. People can take their holidays where they like as far as I am concerned. The pronouncedly insular attitudes of some British socialists are exemplified more by their behaviour than by where they go for holidays, eg;

one British socialist (Old Labour) I knew said that she did not want to go outside Britain because "Britain has got everything". Fair enough. Her opinion. But I think a lot of people would describe this view as insular and Britocentric.

a swappie I knew years ago was shocked when workmate of his took a job in Sweden. He also said that he would never learn any other languages, because everyone else in the world could speak English. I think that a lot of people would describe this as just a tad insular.

I could give a whole load of other examples. I'm not saying all socialists are like this, it's just that it is so surprising when they are, because there is such a contradiction in internationalists having somewhat ex-colonial attitudes.

 

[glenquagmire]

I don't see any ex-colonial attitudes in the examples from Mark Steel there. Indeed, I probably have used the expression 'foreign holiday' myself over the last year. On the other hand, if you assume when you hear the word 'holiday' that it automatically means another country then that probably betrays more about your perspective than anything else.

Not knowing anything about the other examples you give, I see no point in commenting.

 

[electric.avenue]

Yes, I don't mean that it is necessarily ex-colonial to say "foreign holiday", just a wee bit quaint, and a bit typical of an island nation mentality. I also think it is just plain funny to assume that everybody on the same train as you simply must be English, (esp funny as it was a train from Glasgie!). When I was on about ex-colonial attitudes, I meant more in the examples given.

I certainly don't assume when I hear the word holiday that it means anywhere in particular - a holiday can be spent anywhere.

By travelling I am not necessarily even referring to holidays as such. You might travel for work or for study, as well as for leisure. I also found it funny that Steel described himself as surprised and impressed when somebody told him they were going on a business trip to Portugal - I just find it hard to believe that he could be that naive.

 

[glenquagmire]

I'd be impressed if somebody I knew was going on a business trip to Portugal. I don't know many people who travel abroad for work.

Maybe it's because I'm so insular.

 

[Belushi]

Yes, I don't mean that it is necessarily ex-colonial to say "foreign holiday", just a wee bit quaint, and a bit typical of an island nation mentality.

Eh? whys it 'quaint' to use the term foreign holiday?

 

[electric.avenue]

I'd be impressed if somebody I knew was going on a business trip to Portugal. I don't know many people who travel abroad for work.

Maybe it's because I'm so insular.

Eh? whys it 'quaint' to use the term foreign holiday?

Well, it sounds as if you are expecting to be surrounded by aliens or something.

 

[Belushi]

Well, it sounds as if you are expecting to be surrounded by aliens or something.

No it doesnt, its a perfectly ordinary phrase meaning you are going abroad for your holidays rather than in the UK

 

[Belushi]

I'd be impressed if somebody I knew was going on a business trip to Portugal. I don't know many people who travel abroad for work.

Maybe it's because I'm so insular.

Innit, its hardly an everyday experience for many people in this country.

 

[butchersapron]

for·eign (fôr'ĭn, fŏr'-)
adj.
Located away from one's native country

 

[electric.avenue]

Fair enough, but I still think that referring to people, places and languages as "foreign" sounds funny, if not downright hilarious. Why not just refer to them as what they are, ie: French, Portuguese, Japanese, etc.

I think "abroad" sounds funny too. Where is "abroad"?

Also, the idea of "native country" is subjective - people have different native countries, different ideas of where they start and end, different ideas about where they belong, what cultures they like, and so on. Also, people migrate and move around today more so than ever before. I think that's why concepts of "foreign" and "abroad" sound so funny - they imply an in-group/out-group mentality, like "this little patch of earth is my native country, anything outside it is foreign and alien".

 

[butchersapron]

Count Alex Anton Arco auf Valley Maximilian Lyon-Dalberg-Acton Callinicos puts the boot in: review

How could someone as charming, talented, and funny as Mark Steel have produced as sad and at points as unpleasant a book as this?

What he says about the past decade evinces a kind of grandiose ignorance that is a consequence of the fact that he's no longer actively involved in the SWP...

How many times have i read this sort of look the other way nonsense:

He tries to generate some pathos from the moment when he cancelled his subscription to the SWP, but the truth is that he'd left us in spirit years before.

 

[articul8]

glad i bought it today then

 

[Bakunin]

Count Alex Anton Arco auf Valley Maximilian Lyon-Dalberg-Acton Callinicos puts the boot in: review






How many times have i read this sort of loo the iother way nonsense:

I think it's the remark about Steel's alleged 'ignorance' being a result of his severing ties with the Swappies that really gets my goat, to be honest. The Prof makes it sound almost as though being a Swappie makes someone exist on some mythical higher plain of being.

It really does sound overwhelmingly arrogant to me, but coming from someone like Callinicos that shouldn't really be a surprise.

 

[barney_pig]

for years one quote that kept cropping up in the party was that poxy crap from trotters:"outside the party there is no life", within the swp there really is a culture that believes that party membership conferred something that

makes someone exist on some mythical higher plain of being.

 

[mk12]

Where is "abroad"?

Outside your native country. Are you thick?

There's an interesting review here: http://splinteredsunrise.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/summer-reading-mark-steel-asks-whats-going-on/

At one meeting, Mark recounts, a speaker compared Galloway’s criticism of Rees with the 1973 coup in Chile. This completely bonkers analogy was supported by most of the people in the room, including one J Rees. And at this point Mark started to wonder whether he had any place in this crazy organisation.

 

[TremulousTetra]

That dave is a right cunt to be fair.

funny

 

[neville]

I got this out the libary last week and it was quite a good read. I didnt really think he was bashing his old SWP mates but just saying how they all stopped being active and the SWP declined. The squabbles between Galloway and the SWP however were told I thought in a factual way that did neither side any good.

Mind you what struck me as a person only a little bit younger than Mark Steel was how much of it I related to including the listening to the RATM track and realising the children have cottoned on to the fact their dad is singing Fuck You I wont do what you tell me and are only to quick to repeat it when told it is bedtime. Also the sofa sleeping bits were familier. I certainly read it with an eerie feeling of I know what you mean and does every aging/former activist/punk go through the same feelings life moments

 

[neville]

Sorry that last sentance should have read ...............and does every aging/former activist/punk go through the same feelings and/or life defining moments.

 

[Gavin Bl]

While I agree that Callinicos is a pretty arrogant character, I don't see this as particularly harsh a review, the splintered sunrise one sounds right on the money though

 

[Groucho]

While I agree that Callinicos is a pretty arrogant character, I don't see this as particularly harsh a review, the splintered sunrise one sounds right on the money though

I don't find Callinicos at all arrogant

 

[belboid]

really? I quite like the old posho, but he can be an arrogant tosspot at times.

"you dont agree with me? Oh well, you clearly just dont understand...."

It can be a very funny (in a good way) arrogance at times

 

[trevhagl]

I got this out the libary last week and it was quite a good read. I didnt really think he was bashing his old SWP mates but just saying how they all stopped being active and the SWP declined. The squabbles between Galloway and the SWP however were told I thought in a factual way that did neither side any good.

Mind you what struck me as a person only a little bit younger than Mark Steel was how much of it I related to including the listening to the RATM track and realising the children have cottoned on to the fact their dad is singing Fuck You I wont do what you tell me and are only to quick to repeat it when told it is bedtime. Also the sofa sleeping bits were familier. I certainly read it with an eerie feeling of I know what you mean and does every aging/former activist/punk go through the same feelings life moments

Must say that sounds bang on the mark, the bit about Rage Against The Machine.
Mind you the indie kids of the 90's weren't half as bad as some of the smug arrogant cunts who follow me around on here.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Got the book yesterday and found it to be a terribly depressing read. (Dealing with the pain of a marriage break up and then the breakaway from the political movement that had taken up half of his life it's understandable - even for a comedian.)

 

[Isambard]

Finished reading it yesterday. Found it funny, sad, honest, human.
I have a mate (a railway worker FFS) who got all mournful last week and tried to tell me the working class doesn't exist and I found a passage from the book that enabled me to argue the point with him without being all shouty and ranty.

 

[treelover]

The review on Splintered Sunrise is quite wonderful and very moving,

btw, I'm one of those who rarely reads the source material only the reviews, I don't think I am the only one!

 

[treelover]

Cliff followed this up with the Leading Areas plan, according to which an area that was doing well (say, Manchester) would be identified extra resources. Of course, the organisation’s limited resources meant that this penalised areas that were already struggling. Cliff gave us to understand that, such would be the shining example set by the Leading Areas, that struggling areas would be inspired to redouble their efforts and would therefore benefit from a kind of trickle-down process.

This sounds exactly like New Labours's policies for the public services

 

[imposs1904]

This sounds exactly like New Labours's policies for the public services

Maybe it was ex-Swoppie Jim Fitzpatrick who came up with the idea?

 

[treelover]

Btw, i have just had a go at reading that More Years For the Locust, heavy going but bang on in terms of the destructive and undemocratic nature of the SWP,(Harman has been on the Central Comittee since 1971, longer than any moderns Pope has reigned!) What was interesting to me though is how many of the IS people (try googling names) still do positive stuff such as Protz with CAMRA and Dave Peers with pensioner issues through Grey Pride, of course there is always Roger Rosewell to counter any positive thoughts.