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Mark Steel on the SWP

durruti02 said:
"The irony is that many of the same people who are now angrily reciting
the reasons for why we must distance ourselves from George Galloway,
were then refusing to allow any discussion on why he should be even
questioned" . well said that man :D

How did these people disallow any discussion? :confused:

Editor, maybe you could help clear this up? :D
 
MC5 said:
How did these people disallow any discussion? :confused:

Editor, maybe you could help clear this up? :D
really MC??:rolleyes: you must not have been following the respect debate over the last few years .. :rolleyes: this is one of yor critical interventions??? :D

so what do you think of what steel says?
 
MC5 said:
Critical? A bit melodramatic. :rolleyes:

Steel's comments are interesting. Must be coining it in. :D

inded but this is not about is comical pulling ability or rather his ability to pull in money thru comedy .. it is about his criticims of the SW .. what do you think of them??
 
durruti02 said:
inded but this is not about is comical pulling ability or rather his ability to pull in money thru comedy .. it is about his criticims of the SW .. what do you think of them??

Fairly predictable for someone aiming for the stars and a nice pension. :D
 
MC5 said:
Denuciations? :rolleyes:

The man obviously wants out to pursue his career, nowt wrong with that. :D

Being in the SWP and having a career never seemed to be a problem before; it also doesn't seem to be a problem for would be radio pundit Prof Alex C. Sour grapes don't make for good posts MC5.

Louis MacNeice
 
poster342002 said:
How long until Mark's expelled, I wonder? :rolleyes:

Dunno - but I saw that Kevin Ovenden's book on Malcolm X is now on the reduced/second-hand shelves of Bookmarks already:D
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Being in the SWP and having a career never seemed to be a problem before; it also doesn't seem to be a problem for would be radio pundit Prof Alex C. Sour grapes don't make for good posts MC5.

Louis MacNeice

Now why would I bother with such a thing as sour grapes, when what Mark Steel does and what Prof Alex C does has no bearing on my life whatsoever? :confused:
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
very good!:D

and did you buy it now he has been expelled?:D

no - if I had to buy things by everyone who had ever fallen out of favour with the SWP I'd be an even poorer man than I am :(
 
MC5 said:
Now why would I bother with such a thing as sour grapes, when what Mark Steel does and what Prof Alex C does has no bearing on my life whatsoever? :confused:

No bearing whatsoever? Not even on that little corner of your cyber life you've given over to defending the SWP...I think you protest too much?:p

Louis MacNeice
 
MC5 said:
I think I've made that clear to all but the most truculent of posters here. :rolleyes::D;)
right! I get it. You are not a member, but the very fact you have the temerity to look into the possibility some things about SW may be correct, justified, and of a reasonable nature, means you must be a "trotbot". Not the first time I've seen a tortured logic deployed in here to substantiate a spurious dog.:D

oops! That should have read spurious dogma. Perhaps it was a Freudian slip aimed at the running dogs of capitalism.:D
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
right! I get it. You are not a member, but the very fact you have the temerity to look into the possibility some things about SW may be correct, justified, and of a reasonable nature, means you must be a "trotbot". Not the first time I've seen a tortured logic deployed in here to substantiate a spurious dog.:D


Quite. :)
 
i was an swp member between '89 and '96. What is clear from Mark Steel's critique is that he has been divorced from the reality of the swp for the best part of his 25 year membership. Tony Cliff talked the talk about honestly assessing where the party was, but ime it rarely made it into the line of command reaching down from the CC. I realised quite early on that the swp was being economical with the truth about its membership numbers, that it changed policy without acknowledging that the previous policy must then have been in error ('changed objective circumstances' is an excuse that began to wear pretty thin), that it exaggerated the 'up-turn' in the early 90's to the extent that those activists (and there must have been very many) who did not experience the wonderful rise is socialist fortunes NOW would SOON - but instead became demoralised when it never seemed a particularly 'good time to be a socialist'.

The probelm was that there was never a long-term honest assessment of the ups and downs of 'the class struggle'. We were always on the brink of something BIG. Now, either the CC made a psychological calculation that it was important to try and maintain this buzz at whatever cost (without acknowledging the come-downs) - which is fucking patronising - , or they were just out and out fucking incompetent. Prob a bit of both.

That ex-swp members doubtless form the largest non-party of the left is due to the cynicism and disillusionment that sets in when those in positions of responsibility flip-flop with policy without offering a coherent defence, hyper-inflate reality & prospects and use the dubious model of democratic centralism to stifle internal debate. While I began to suss this early on there was enuff going on throughout the 90's to keep me hanging in. The swp taught me a lot, for which i am grateful. But the main thing they taught me is to treat with extreme suspicion the organised Left.
 
geoff64 said:
i was an swp member between '89 and '96. What is clear from Mark Steel's critique is that he has been divorced from the reality of the swp for the best part of his 25 year membership. Tony Cliff talked the talk about honestly assessing where the party was, but ime it rarely made it into the line of command reaching down from the CC.

Maybe by the time you joined the SWP the Social Worker leadership was getting into its hyper-optimistic ra-ra stride - it certainly was like that from the early 90s at the latest - but I think you are a little unfair to Steel.

He joined, apparently, in the late 70s. Through the 80s, as I'm sure you know, the Social Worker leadership talked of the 'downturn' (less 'class struggle', or at least less workplace struggle, than in the 70s) - despite the extraordinary (and sadly defeated) miners' strike of 84-85.

This view - 'it's the downturn, comrades' - kept the Social Workers from massive over-optimism for a decade or so.

I'm not saying they didn't talk bollocks. They are Trots. Of course they talked bollocks, but for much of the period of Steel's membership they didn't talk the same bollocks as they have talked and talked and talked since the early 90s. They didn't have to pretend the fantastic things they've had to pretend since then.
 
JHE said:
Maybe by the time you joined the SWP the Social Worker leadership was getting into its hyper-optimistic ra-ra stride - it certainly was like that from the early 90s at the latest - but I think you are a little unfair to Steel.

He joined, apparently, in the late 70s. Through the 80s, as I'm sure you know, the Social Worker leadership talked of the 'downturn' (less 'class struggle', or at least less workplace struggle, than in the 70s) - despite the extraordinary (and sadly defeated) miners' strike of 84-85.

This view - 'it's the downturn, comrades' - kept the Social Workers from massive over-optimism for a decade or so.

I'm not saying they didn't talk bollocks. They are Trots. Of course they talked bollocks, but for much of the period of Steel's membership they didn't talk the same bollocks as they have talked and talked and talked since the early 90s. They didn't have to pretend the fantastic things they've had to pretend since then.

Steel's relationship with the SWP wasn't that of the hyper-involved member as far as i can tell from his autobiography, he rarely mentions them and all his political activity appeared to revolve around the labour party - i'm not sure how involved or aware he was in the various turns and internal disputes, it seems he was just a dues payer during most of the period. I may be wrong and he may have chosen to leave that sort of stuff out for fear of putting potential customers off though.
 
geoff64 said:
i was an swp member between '89 and '96. What is clear from Mark Steel's critique is that he has been divorced from the reality of the swp for the best part of his 25 year membership. Tony Cliff talked the talk about honestly assessing where the party was, but ime it rarely made it into the line of command reaching down from the CC. I realised quite early on that the swp was being economical with the truth about its membership numbers, that it changed policy without acknowledging that the previous policy must then have been in error ('changed objective circumstances' is an excuse that began to wear pretty thin), that it exaggerated the 'up-turn' in the early 90's to the extent that those activists (and there must have been very many) who did not experience the wonderful rise is socialist fortunes NOW would SOON - but instead became demoralised when it never seemed a particularly 'good time to be a socialist'.

The probelm was that there was never a long-term honest assessment of the ups and downs of 'the class struggle'. We were always on the brink of something BIG. Now, either the CC made a psychological calculation that it was important to try and maintain this buzz at whatever cost (without acknowledging the come-downs) - which is fucking patronising - , or they were just out and out fucking incompetent. Prob a bit of both.

That ex-swp members doubtless form the largest non-party of the left is due to the cynicism and disillusionment that sets in when those in positions of responsibility flip-flop with policy without offering a coherent defence, hyper-inflate reality & prospects and use the dubious model of democratic centralism to stifle internal debate. While I began to suss this early on there was enuff going on throughout the 90's to keep me hanging in. The swp taught me a lot, for which i am grateful. But the main thing they taught me is to treat with extreme suspicion the organised Left.

Good testimony.
 
I think things started to go awry when the SWP (along with much of the left) completly misunderstood the nature of the rise of New Labour.

I remember how most of the support for NuLab seemed to come, in my experienced, from the new breed of urban proffessional yuppies - individualistic, ambitious corporate ladderclimbers who were cheesed off with the "incompetance" of the Tory government, but by no means wanted any sort of notionally leftwing government to take over. All the criticisms of the John Major governemtn were that it was "inefficiant", "incompetant", "a mess" etc. Never that it was "unjust".

What these new yuppy-types wanted was an equally nasty, rightwing governemnt that was "competant" at the job. That's what New Labour offered, that's what they voted for and that's largely what they got.

The left, meanwhile, chose to interperate this ugly phenomenon as a seismic shift to the left in the psyche of the masses. They predicted a "crises of expectations" that never came because most of New Labour's supporters expected pricesely the rightwing policies they got and were pretty much happy with them.

It was this naive interpretation of the election of an overtly rightwing governemnt as some sort of widespread rejection of tory values that started my slow disillusionment with the SWP and the left as a whole. They were, it seemed, wilfully blind to the unpleasant reality of what was unfolding around them. There was and has been no "upturn" in working class militancy or resurgence of leftwing ideas - quite the opposite has happened. The last 10 years has seen the final - and possibly permanent - nails in the coffin of the workers movement and leftwing ideas as a whole in this country. I have never known people to be less receptive to them than they are now.
 
I agree with poster342002 that much of the left misunderstood the reasons for the election of the Blair in 1997. They wanted to believe that it marked a shift to the left in terms of what voters wanted and expected from the new government. The electorate were certainly to the left on a number of key issues (especially on the privatisation of rail, redistributive taxation, wealth inequality and spending on public services).

But much of the radical left saw voter opinions on these issues as evidence that the electorate had moved to the left in a more general and profound sense and wished the incoming Labour govt to reflect this. A perspective common on the radical left was that once New Labour failed to meet these expectations there would be widespread support either for a revival of the left inside the Labour Party, or for a new political party to the left of Labour.

Neither of these perspectives have been fulfilled because the reasoning upon which they were based was fundamentally wrong.

The mood in 1997 was primarily an anti-Tory mood with highly selective and sharply bounded support for some marginally more leftwing policies in particular areas.

There was no popular radicalism (such as existed in 1945, or to a lesser extent in the early 1970s). The harsh truth was that in terms of their ability to mobilise and build significant electoral support (including among many trade unionists) the left had been defeated.

The bureaucratic Keynesian statism that was being offered by the much of the left (and which constituted ‘socialism’ in the popular consciousness) was rejected in 1979, 1983, 1987 and 1992. By the mid 1990s the necessary social and political foundations on which such a left-wing alternative could be built and offered as a credible alternative to Major and Blair had simply ceased to exist on an electorally significant scale. The left had become divided, demoralised and demobilised – not by rightwing trade union and party leaders – but by the increasing indifference and hostility of increasing numbers of workers to a politics that appeared to offer few credible solutions to their very real problems.

This need not always be the case. But to recover the ground that has been lost in the past 30 years will take much hard and patient work. There are no shortcuts in place of building support for socialist ideas in a manner that relates directly to what people want and think is feasible – and taking advantage of political opportunities as and when they arise without indulging in hyperbole, sectarianism and adventurism. Not easy to do – as much of the radical left demonstrate on an almost daily basis.
 
I agree with that, but can you be more specific here:

"There are no shortcuts in place of building support for socialist ideas in a manner that relates directly to what people want and think is feasible – and taking advantage of political opportunities as and when they arise without indulging in hyperbole, sectarianism and adventurism. Not easy to do – as much of the radical left demonstrate on an almost daily basis."
 
Re: #57

One example is how the radical left responds to periodic strikes by major public sector unions (FBU, RMT, PCS etc). In terms of ‘hyperbole’ these strikes are often represented by some socialists as constituting ‘the return of the working class’, ‘a revival in class militancy’, evidence of ‘growing working class anger with New Labour’. They are alleged to prove that the ‘objective conditions’ exist for a new party/coalition to the left of Labour.

Of course, such strikes in the public sector in recent years have not been evidence of any of this. And the very limited and highly uneven progress made by various socialist groups in attempting to build organisations to the left of Labour is partial proof.

Furthermore, the fact that the RMT and FBU (both relatively small, industrially cohesive and powerful unions) have severed their links with Labour – but have not formally endorsed any other party political initiative shows that while some trade unionists are prepared to take action on key industrial issues such as pay, they have not in general made the link between the problems they face and the issue of political representation. In short, to most workers (including many well organised and militant trade unionists) there remains an enduring separation between the industrial and the political.

Not only is there little sign that this separation is being weakened, but what evidence we have suggests the separation has proven very resilient over the past 10 years. The annual survey of social attitudes in Britain has found that just as many trade unionists identify positively with the Labour Party today than did in 1997.

‘Sectarianism’ is when socialists behave in a manner that serves to divide and/or demobilise united opposition to the main enemy of the moment (be it an employer, those on the political right, or the state). Such behaviour is usually motivated by the belief that their view is the only correct one, and that unity is worth sacrificing if that view is not accepted by others on the socialist left. In my view, the recent split from the Scottish Socialist Party was a sectarian action. Whatever differences members may have had with the leadership, they should have stayed and fought to change things. You do not abandon years of hard work, and the political profile and roots you have developed, simply because you do not get your own way on matters of policy and how your leadership behaves.

When the going gets tough in any political organisation it is always tempting to leave and start afresh. All the old problems, mistakes and conflicts appear to be left behind in the name of ‘getting it right next time’. If the political party is operated in manner that precludes meaningful debate and membership democracy – then a split may be justified. But that was not the situation within the SSP.

‘Adventurism’ occurs when a political or industrial initiative is taken that is not grounded in a realistic assessment of the balance of forces and what is likely to result. Actions are guided, not by open and honest appraisals of real trends and obstacles, but by an over-riding desire to short-cut more modest steps by hoping that dramatic acts will inspire sudden changes in political consciousness which will lead, for example, to sharp increases in party membership and support. The urge to initiate a sudden transformation within a difficult and demoralising situation typically inspires such adventures. A necessary prelude to adventurism is ‘hyperbole’, and it is usually accompanied by sectarianism.

Avoiding such pitfalls is not a matter of ‘objective’ scientific judgement. Like all political decision-making it requires open and sustained debate coupled with empirically grounded assessments of the economic, industrial and political contexts within which action is planned.

The reason that much of the radical left is prone to hyperbole, sectarianism and adventurism is because a) they are not organised on the basis of open internal discussion and democratic debate, and b) they prefer their actions to be guided by highly selective, one-sided and anecdotal assessments of the industrial and political situation. Such assessments serve to boost the morale of the already faithful – but they usually prove disastrous and counter-productive when used as the basis for political intervention into the ‘real world’.

Sorry that took so long….
 
Agree with much of what michael1968x says. We need more of this kind of sober, analytical thinking if we're ever to even begin to get out of the utterly hopeless mess we're in.
 
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