butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Me too.
March on the City - Protestors make it into the Stock Exchange Building
- Thread starter Udo Erasmus
- Start date
to give you directions?
a group? yes, er... class war.A group? Who? How many involved? Where? What did you do? What outcomes were achieved?
Anti-election?
Social centres? Is that where you go drink copious amounts of alcohol, smoke dope and pat yourselves on the back thinking you've done something worthwhile, when in reality you've actually done fuckall?
how many involved? what the fuck's that got to do with anything?
where? the uk.
what did you do? specify which area.
what outcomes were achieved? are you some sort of management wanker with cost/benefit analysis shit and a taylorist outlook?
and no, i don't go to social centres to drink copious amounts of alcohol or drugs or whatnot. i'm thinking of social centres like the london action resource centre where people go to get things done.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
1) I was interested, but judging by your answer and what I've seen of Class War, a very small number indeed, which suggests your impact has been less than the various trot groups.
2) Yes, I had gathered that.
3) Stop the city in the 80's, battling the old bill at the Poll Tax demo and involvement with AFA is wot I'm aware of? Oh, and the annual effigy burning.
4) You believe what you want to believe, but I once did a trade union studies course which covered those areas. You studied Taylorism and cost benefit analysis yourself?
5) Ok.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
A minute in and the cops lose it, then the dogs come out. I like the way that when the police think they've controlled the demo the bulk of the protesters just turn and find another place to make their point.
Meanwhile, the police run around like headless chickens.
One likes to throw a few punches here.
The gee, gees arrive. Martin Smith of the SWP makes a good rallying speech.
Good achievement!
Meanwhile, the police run around like headless chickens.
One likes to throw a few punches here.
The gee, gees arrive. Martin Smith of the SWP makes a good rallying speech.
Good achievement!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
'undreds ov us - the h's are starting to drop again comrades.The gee, gees arrive. Martin Smith of the SWP makes a good rallying speech.
Good achievement!
given that you asked, and i answered, about the last ten years, i don't know why you're bringing the 80s stop the city, the 1990 poll tax riot and afa into it.1) I was interested, but judging by your answer and what I've seen of Class War, a very small number indeed, which suggests your impact has been less than the various trot groups.
2) Yes, I had gathered that.
3) Stop the city in the 80's, battling the old bill at the Poll Tax demo and involvement with AFA is wot I'm aware of? Oh, and the annual effigy burning.
4) You believe what you want to believe, but I once did a trade union studies course which covered those areas. You studied Taylorism and cost benefit analysis yourself?
5) Ok.
but let's have a look at the swp's proud record over the past ten years, ten years which have seen the turnout at the flagship 'marxism' event tumble to a pitiful shadow of the 1990s attendance. there was the effective campaign to get people to vote labour in 1997... and despite your hopes, it's taken two more labour victories before people really got fucked off with them and a tory government now looks inevitable. then there was the very popular globalise resistance front, which is all but defunct. there's the socialist alliance, which was going great guns until the swp got involved, upon which it promptly foundered. there was the ruc, which saw the swappies try to teach those uppity muslims a thing or two, only to find that their new bedfellows got tired of them... then there was the stop the war coalition, which failed to prevent any wars at all. the upshot of the last ten years swappie performance is the destruction of a potentially extremely influential anti-war movement, the destruction of a hitherto unknown alliance between a range of socialist organisations which promised much, the destruction of your chosen successor organisation - the ruc, amid some acrimony, an utter failure of an anti-capitalist front group, the disappearance of the anti-nazi league into the equally (in)effectual unite against fascism, and continued calls for support for the labour party!
i suppose you're right, and the swp have had a bigger impact than class war. but this swp impact is a litany of failure, of shrinking membership year on year, of duplicity and of breathtaking hypocrisy. if that's success, you can keep it!
i certainly hope not! with enemies like the swp, the bnp hardly need friends.
Rabidrodent
Samphire sucker!
My word, they couldn't do better if they were working for the establishment...cough..
Rabidrodent
Samphire sucker!
Thats the trouble with these 'vanguardist twots', even their run of failures are masterfull successes!
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
I will try and stick to just the last ten years then.
Despite a decrease in numbers attending since the 90's, it's very likely the event Marxism will continue. When I first went to Marxism the place was empty, so there's been an improvement since my time at least.
However, it's clear, there's been a shrinking of membership of all left groups since the 90's, including anarchists, some have never gone beyond a few dozen ffs. Class War went off the radar for most of the 90's and beyond.
Other groups share the blame for the lack of any large unified left organisation. For example, the Socialist Party walked from the Socialist Alliance, as did Red Action and others, before it was voted to be shut down.
As for Respect? Well it was obvious that politically the SWP and Galloway weren't going to have a long marriage. There were significant political differences afterall. These were, for a while, put aside, opportunistically some would say, but these were always gonna come back to bite someone on the arse at sometime. Galloway's gigantic ego didn't help either. Initially, there were some good results electorally at least and the SWP put a lot of resources into the project, but again the chasm between those wanting to build a left reformist alternative to New Labour and those wanting a full blown revolutionary organisation were going to clash at some time.
I would applaud the building of the stop the war movement, which included many groups, CND, CPB, SWP, Liberals, independents and others, that saw the largest demonstration in the history of demonstrations and brought hundreds of thousands into political activity for the first time.
Let's not forget that Bush and his administration were determined to go to war with, or without the support of Blair and the Labour government.
Blair's messianic support for Bush and co, whilst lying through his teeth, was not going to be influenced by a million people on the streets here and millions of others elsewhere, but those numbers out on the streets did affect some and it was always a possibility that Blair could be defeated in the crucial vote. It was the craven support of Blair by most inside the Parliamentary Labour party that helped set-off the chain of events that was the Iraq war and gave 'legitimacy' to the war in the eyes of others.
There's been no 'destruction of the anti-war movement' by anybody and you're a fool if you believe that. The war started and yet still the anti-war movement continues, although with somewhat fewer people active in the movement.
What would you have done that was any different, seeing as you are so critical? The Class War modus operandi seems to be for most of the time to shout a lot, have a ruck and snipe at everyone else. You need to look at your own political shortcomings.
As for Global Resistance? The problem with single issue campaigns like these is they grow and then they fall off quickly. They fall even quicker when there's events like at Genoa when a protester was killed by a policeman's bullet and hundreds were beaten and imprisoned, or 9/11 when it was clear within minutes that there would be no more appetite for street showdowns, and that states the world over would no longer tolerate even mild dissent.
In the UK global resistance went mainstream and protests became scripted, celebrity-endorsed and organised by mainstream NGOs. Instead of the radicalism of Seattle, Prague and Genoa, there were as The New Statesman noted: 'stadiums full of washed-up rockers, Richard Curtis dramas and Tony Blair grinning with Bono. In place of a movement that wanted to overthrow the G8 and all it stood for comes a call to Make Global Capitalism A Bit Fairer'.
I'm not going to add anything more, as you are clearly barking, but to end on a positive note, there maybe a few less radicals about, but there's still the anger. Wonder what the next ten years will bring?
MC5 - I would add. The fall off of SWP membership in the 1990s can easily be explained (especially in retrospect). The SWP reached a high point of membership in late 1992. This was following recruitment during the Poll Tax rebellion and then during the Stop the War campaign against the first war on Iraq. Then significant recruitment around the economic mess that did for the Major Govt and the resulting pit closures protests.
From then until the outbreak of the 'war on terror' we went through a period of the lowest level of industrial action ever recorded against a backdrop of a long period of economic stability. Keeping a revolutionary party together during such times was a bit of an achievement.
The onset of war and the earlier birth internationally of (what can broadly be described as) the anti-capitalist movement, created a political awakening and radicalisation of significant layers. Such movements often rise and fall. The SWP experienced some modest recruitment. More significantly the SWP were central to the biggest protest movement this country has ever seen (so far).
The Respect initiative was an attempt to regroup the left to encompass both revolutionaries and those radicalised by the anti-war movement but not (yet) socialist or revolutionary. The acrimonious split caused some damage.
Nonetheless the SWP overall continued to experience modest growth. We are not yet back to the high point of 1992, but we are entering a period more favourable to revolutionaries (and have more members now than we did at any time prior to 1990).
The SWP are very well placed just as the biggest economic crisis for a generation is unfolding. The centre parties are not popular, and (to put it mildly) have some credibility problems as regards their neo-liberal ideology. The dead weight of Labourism - that deathly grip of reformist inertia that has paralised the workers in years gone by - is weaker within the 'labour and TU movement' than any time since WW2 (not dead, but significantly weakened).
You aint seen nothing yet.
From then until the outbreak of the 'war on terror' we went through a period of the lowest level of industrial action ever recorded against a backdrop of a long period of economic stability. Keeping a revolutionary party together during such times was a bit of an achievement.
The onset of war and the earlier birth internationally of (what can broadly be described as) the anti-capitalist movement, created a political awakening and radicalisation of significant layers. Such movements often rise and fall. The SWP experienced some modest recruitment. More significantly the SWP were central to the biggest protest movement this country has ever seen (so far).
The Respect initiative was an attempt to regroup the left to encompass both revolutionaries and those radicalised by the anti-war movement but not (yet) socialist or revolutionary. The acrimonious split caused some damage.
Nonetheless the SWP overall continued to experience modest growth. We are not yet back to the high point of 1992, but we are entering a period more favourable to revolutionaries (and have more members now than we did at any time prior to 1990).
The SWP are very well placed just as the biggest economic crisis for a generation is unfolding. The centre parties are not popular, and (to put it mildly) have some credibility problems as regards their neo-liberal ideology. The dead weight of Labourism - that deathly grip of reformist inertia that has paralised the workers in years gone by - is weaker within the 'labour and TU movement' than any time since WW2 (not dead, but significantly weakened).
You aint seen nothing yet.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
MC5 - I would add. The fall off of SWP membership in the 1990s can easily be explained (especially in retrospect). The SWP reached a high point of membership in late 1992. This was following recruitment during the Poll Tax rebellion and then during the Stop the War campaign against the first war on Iraq. Then significant recruitment around the economic mess that did for the Major Govt and the resulting pit closures protests.
From then until the outbreak of the 'war on terror' we went through a period of the lowest level of industrial action ever recorded against a backdrop of a long period of economic stability. Keeping a revolutionary party together during such times was a bit of an achievement.
The onset of war and the earlier birth internationally of (what can broadly be described as) the anti-capitalist movement, created a political awakening and radicalisation of significant layers. Such movements often rise and fall. The SWP experienced some modest recruitment. More significantly the SWP were central to the biggest protest movement this country has ever seen (so far).
The Respect initiative was an attempt to regroup the left to encompass both revolutionaries and those radicalised by the anti-war movement but not (yet) socialist or revolutionary. The acrimonious split caused some damage.
Nonetheless the SWP overall continued to experience modest growth. We are not yet back to the high point of 1992, but we are entering a period more favourable to revolutionaries (and have more members now than we did at any time prior to 1990).
The SWP are very well placed just as the biggest economic crisis for a generation is unfolding. The centre parties are not popular, and (to put it mildly) have some credibility problems as regards their neo-liberal ideology. The dead weight of Labourism - that deathly grip of reformist inertia that has paralised the workers in years gone by - is weaker within the 'labour and TU movement' than any time since WW2 (not dead, but significantly weakened).
You aint seen nothing yet.
A touch of revisionism?
An alternate take...
1993/4 (not 1992) was probably the high water mark for the SWP with 10,000 claimed members and attendances at Marxism giving this at least some credence.
Why?
The relaunch of the ANL
The campaign against pitclosures
campaign against loans and fees for students
...and the dissappearance of Militant as a challenger post Poll Tax.
Post 94 the SWP started losing members.
The anarchists were hitting their own high water mark and the anti-roads, anti-cjb and initial anti-capitalist stuff was peaking and the SWP could not relate to it, and lets face it were given a hostile reaction when they tried (largely from disgruntled ex members).
Industrial action, or the lack of it was (and still is) largely irrelevent in this.
Post Genoa and 9/11 towards the war on terror and the Respect debacle is a different story that someone else should tell.
And now? well that remains to be seen, suffice it to say I do not share Groucho's optimism for the propects for the Left (and i'll include the anarchists in that).
A touch of revisionism?
An alternate take...
1993/4 (not 1992) was probably the high water mark for the SWP with 10,000 claimed members and attendances at Marxism giving this at least some credence.
Why?
...The campaign against pitclosures...
Industrial action, or the lack of it was (and still is) largely irrelevent in this.
...
The campaign against pit closures was late 1992 and early 1993. That was the high point of recruitment and yes the levels hit then were sustained for a short period after.
The level of industrial militancy is a factor of some significance. As is the level of protest action, numbers involved in protest movements etc.
Direct class struggle - strike action - is a significant measure of the confidence and combativity of the working class. A revolutionary party whose central philosophy is that the majority are working class and that the emancipation of the majority working class must be the act of the working class themselves, is not going to win quite so many adherents at a time when the working class are not seen to be fighting as a class.
It is also the case that direct struggle radicalises greater numbers; the 1990s saw relatively low levels of protest too. (The CJB and roads protests did not attract huge numbers - the Coalition against the CJB in which the SWP were involved mobilised the largest numbers)
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So, leaving the infighting to one side, essentially what happened at the march was a couple of hundred people turned up, and you 'stormed' a shopping centre, thinking that the Royal Exchange and LSE were the same thing?
Groucho, you are a fucking fantasist, more members than any time since 1992 indeed
Although that is not what I said is it?
The downfall of capitalism is very close now comrade.
eh? could you elaborate on this 'economic mess which did for the major government'? and especially the resulting pit closures?
let's take history the way it happened, which is traditionally considered to be forwards, not backwards:
1) 1992: pit closures.
2) 1997: major loses general election.
3) 2008: economy, growing continuously since 1992, slips towards recession.
please tell me at which point there was this 'economic mess which did for the major government' and when the resultant pit closures occurred in your version of the 1990s. you're not seriously telling me that the recession of the early 90s period was a factor in the 1997 general election, when major got more votes than he did in 1992 - at least i hope you're not.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Matt, only you has said such a thing.
I said resultant pit closures protests.
yes the fucking mess of 1992 fucked up Major and his was a lame duck Govt from that point onwards. The pit closures protests of late 1992 early 1993 were so well supported precisely because the economic mess was so devistating and even people who had not supported the miners in 1984/5 suddenly realised the Tories had lied to them.
Well don't take my word for it:
Britanica history of the UK said:
The fact is that the 'Black Wednesday' fiasco in Sept 1992 that saw house prices crash (further), massive hikes in interest rates, negative equity, huge repossessions and a deepening of the recession did for Major's Govvernment. Having been elected only months before, he was fucked from that point onwards. Everything he touched turned to shit. Such was his credibilty, his party fell apart around him in scandal after scandal in the years to follow.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Yes, but as we both said the SWPs boom years from 91 to 94 had nowt to do with industrial stuff the new recruits came from elsewhere, the SWPs failure to retain them also had nowt to do with industrial struggle.
I think your inaccurate re the cjb antiroads etc. We could look at the coalition against the cjb in more detail and I suspect the SWP came out of that losing more members than it gained. The roads campaigns etc never put tens of thousands on the streets for a demo, sure, but in terms of sustained activity probably had higher numbers involved, and a bigger periphery than you think. We used to shift thousands of copies of the EF!AU for example...I think at one pint we were printing over 5000 of each issue centrally and other groups were printing further copies. All sold and passed around from person to person.
But anyway...
I suggested no such link. I did however, suggest that the protests against the pit closures were swelled by people already pissed off with the Government because of the impact of black Weds. Since I was involved in organising coaches to that protest I can safely say that even people who had failed to support the miners in 1984-5 were prepared to protest against the pit closures because black Wednesday had lifted the scales off their eyes (albeit in some cases temorarily). I also suggested tha black Wednesday sealed the fate of the Major Govt. Despite recovery from recession the Tory Govt. did not recover.
If you read my posts they were clear on this. It is not my fault if you have misread. However, I suggest in future that it might be an idea to read the posts you are responding to and to make sure you understand what is being said before jumping in. If something is ot clear to you, feel free to ask. I am here to help.
Similar threads
- Poll
