March 18th - Stop the War demo

[Pilgrim]

Come on you poor jaded people. Im with Thora on this one.

Lets just do it and have some fun first. And see what comes after instead of prejudging everything before it even starts.

At the very least do it if its a reflection of who you love to be and because you still fukking can! If we dont exercise our freedom it becomes stagnent and easily stolen.

I love a good march personally theres a tangiable group energy and the feeling of being a rebel in the best sense. Plus I can get away with having a good natured jibe at the law. I can think of a single reason why I wouldn't go.

As for concrete results well awareness in the masses is increased and if everything happened just after you did something positive there wouldn't be much to have faith in eh.

It isn't so much (for me, anyway) a question of being jaded.

I, and I suspect many others here, have other campaigns to be involved with.

But, being as objective as I can be, I don't see what yet another march is actually going to achieve.

If the February 15th march, which I was on, didn't stop the war, then what will yet another and, no doubt, much, much smaller march do?

If I'm going to schlepp up to London, yet again, like I did last time and I forget how many times before that, it's going to be to attempt something that actually has a concrete effect, or will lead to something that has a concrete effect.

And I don't see yet another A to B march actually doing that.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Take along a can of brew and a dog on a string,

Has anyone here ever really gone on a march with a dog on a string and some special brew?

 

[chilango]

Has anyone here ever really gone on a march with a dog on a string and some special brew?

we used to get tanked up on alcopops coz they were easier to drink at 6 in the morning on a coach!

 

[aurora green]

Has anyone here ever really gone on a march with a dog on a string and some special brew?

Only almost everyone I know...

 

[Thora_v1]

I can't stand marches.

The name calling/pushing and shoving with the cops isn't exactly harmless if you convince yourself it's some sort of meaningful political activty and it totally alienates a lot of people.

Whilst going out drinking with your mates is fun, you hardly need to surround yourself with loads of Trots to have a good time.

I will not be going because I'd rather keep my weekends for having a laugh.

I think the last march I went on I bumped into you Actually I didn't go on the march so much as just turn up to get pissed at the end.

Deeplight - don't get me wrong, I don't think marching is good for freedom or democracy or to challenge capitalism or anything. I'm just there for the special brew and promotional possibilites.

 

[Thora_v1]

Has anyone here ever really gone on a march with a dog on a string and some special brew?

Yeah, me Well, more likely K super cider and a dog on a bit of rope, but you get what I mean.

 

[big footed fred]

Do you think the Brits are better than the Americans in Iraq then?

I hope so but still want them out asap

 

[deeplight]

I think the last march I went on I bumped into you Actually I didn't go on the march so much as just turn up to get pissed at the end.

Deeplight - don't get me wrong, I don't think marching is good for freedom or democracy or to challenge capitalism or anything. I'm just there for the special brew and promotional possibilites.

If your there then its all good. The more smiling faces the better .

My feelings on it all are quite clear. And yes I live in faith, hope and optimism and feel its a long road. I just get tired of peoples cynicsm.

For what its worth I have other projects and interests, so far as activism goes but I enjoy the marches so Im there too.

I really believe that humanity will get there eventually but evolutions a long and arduous road for us sentient beings. In the mean time I'll do what I can and have as much fun doing it as I can. Why anyone would do otherwise is beyond me.

 

[deeplight]

I think the last march I went on I bumped into you Actually I didn't go on the march so much as just turn up to get pissed at the end.

Deeplight - don't get me wrong, I don't think marching is good for freedom or democracy or to challenge capitalism or anything. I'm just there for the special brew and promotional possibilites.

If your there then its all good. The more smiling faces the better .

My feelings on it all are quite clear. And yes I live in faith, hope and optimism and feel its a long road. I just get tired of peoples cynicsm.

For what its worth I have other projects and interests, so far as activism goes but I enjoy the marches so Im there too.

I really believe that humanity will get there eventually but evolutions a long and arduous road for us sentient beings. In the mean time I'll do what I can and have as much fun doing it as I can. Why anyone would do otherwise is beyond me.

 

[audiotech]

Capitalism sucks innit. Lets have a march!

Go on then.

 

[tollbar]

Pretty much sums it up for me as well.

I live in Plymouth, on the other side of the country. I'd have to get up at about 5:30 AM, pack a bag, walk halfway across town, spend about five or six hours on a coach, wander about London for a bit, another five or six hours journey back, walk halfway back across town to my home and I'd get home for about 11:30PM if I was lucky.

And for what?

In terms of concrete results, what exactly does it achieve?

Been there, done that when I lived outside Exeter in the 70s and early 80s. The bloody South West coaches always turned up late along with the scottish ones. Did the marches and you never had time for a beer afterwards. Some of it achieved something, I dont doubt that some of the big anti aparthied marches helped the situation along in South Africa by boosting the morale of the opposition, but I wouldnt want to be starting out now with the feb 15th failure behind me.

I prefer the Glasgow anti war marches. Usually Start in George square, march around the city centre, sit down outside the recruiting offices, back to George square and into Weatherspoons for a few pints. You may not achieve much but at least you dont end up knackered for days.

 

[JonnyT]

Much as I mght not want to go, see it as pointless, and rant both before and after, chances are i'll end up turning up for one reason or another. pub being most likely. plus, watching trots fight each other is amusing in its way. *shrug*

- Jonathan

 

[wiskey]

deeplight i dunno if i'm not old enough to have become jaded (but i have been going on marches for 25 years) but i'll be going, and i'll be smiling and i'll be near a smaba band cos they're fun, and i'll take any leaflets given to me by anybody promoting their own cause and i shall keep smiling and i shall read some of them recycle them all that evening. but i shant carry a placard.

why? partly cos its nice to be able to walk up the middle of whitehall without getting flattened by a bus, partly cos i rarely get the oppotunity to do something within a large group of people (the only other thing i can think of that comes close is a footy match).

if nobody notices sod it, i noticed, i had a nice day out, with a bit of luck i didnt get into a scrape with a policeman and i didnt drink any alcohol and its all good

wiskers

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Pretty much sums it up for me as well.

I live in Plymouth, on the other side of the country. I'd have to get up at about 5:30 AM, pack a bag, walk halfway across town, spend about five or six hours on a coach, wander about London for a bit, another five or six hours journey back, walk halfway back across town to my home and I'd get home for about 11:30PM if I was lucky.

And for what?

In terms of concrete results, what exactly does it achieve?

Good grief!! No wonder the left hasn't achieved anything with that sort of laxadaisical attitude. A little more effort son and a little less moaning might make all the diffrence.

 

[montevideo]

Good grief!! No wonder the left hasn't achieved anything with that sort of laxadaisical attitude. A little more effort son and a little less moaning might make all the diffrence.

good to have you back chuck, your glove puppet lletsa's been leading us a merry dance (coiled like a rusty spanner), a bit of tell-it-like-it-is common sense is what we need this time of year.

 

[Pilgrim]

Good grief!! No wonder the left hasn't achieved anything with that sort of laxadaisical attitude. A little more effort son and a little less moaning might make all the diffrence.

I already do as much as I can, thanks.

And I severely doubt that yet another A to B march will make the slightest difference whatsoever.

Besides, I'm more busy with local work at the moment.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

I won't be going because I won't be in London, but if I was I'd defo go. I love a good march, me. Take along a can of brew and a dog on a string, maybe a bit of harmless name calling/pushing and shoving with the cops - also a great opportunity to do some leafleting for your own group/cause/project. Then retire to the pub with any out-of-town mates who've come along, job done, great day out had by all

Yeah last time i went on one was with you lot and it was boss.

Depends who you go with really.

STW demo's never really kick off (the more gauche ones like 'day x' and the school strikes did a bit) so you can take a brew.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It's always a bit silly to slag off "A to B marches"unless you've (a) got a better idea (b) got a better idea that a substantial number of people are interested in.

It's too much the game of attacking people who organise something while neither doing anything yourself nor proposing anything that anybody else can realistically accomplish.

 

[Pilgrim]

It's always a bit silly to slag off "A to B marches"unless you've (a) got a better idea (b) got a better idea that a substantial number of people are interested in.

It's too much the game of attacking people who organise something while neither doing anything yourself nor proposing anything that anybody else can realistically accomplish.

That depends on whether or not you see direct action as being a better idea.

Personally, I do. February 15th was, to be fair, an historic event, but it didn't stop the war. Mass direct action, sabotage, strikes, civil unrest and so on might have.

DA hasn't got a mass following as of yet, but I prefer that to marching. That said, I wouldn't ignore marches altogether. I'm inclined to believe that both have their time and place.

And many of the people who criticise an endless diet of A to B marches ARE busy with other things, myself for one. Just because people criticise a particular tactic, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are merely sitting on their arses with nothing better to do than snipe at others.

And direct actions can be suggested, planned and performed by almost anyone. It's not rocket science. Its a case of being willing to take certain risks and accept certain consequences. You support a cause you believe in, you see what sort of action you are able to handle, you plan it, you consider the possible consequences (if any) and then you do it.

 

[audiotech]

February 15th was, to be fair, an historic event, but it didn't stop the war. Mass direct action, sabotage, strikes, civil unrest and so on might have.

Were people up for ^ at the time?

 

[Pilgrim]

Were people up for ^ at the time?

Some people were, yes.

Various actions went on during the Iraq war and the period leading up to it.

And if the union leaders and the self-proclaimed 'leaders' of the anti-war movement (we all know who they are) had supported us, then I believe more people would have been up for various forms of direct action.

Granted, there weren't nearly as many people as we needed to actually call a halt to the war, but my faith in direct action as a tactic remains as strong as ever.

 

[aurora green]

I totally agree that direct action was what was missing from the stop the war campaign, and that it could (perhaps) have made the difference, but I'm as guilty as the next person for not getting involved on that level.

 

[Pilgrim]

I totally agree that direct action was what was missing from the stop the war campaign, and that it could (perhaps) have made the difference, but I'm as guilty as the next person for not getting involved on that level.

It is as much the fault of the union bosses and the self-proclaimed 'leaders' of the anti-war movement for copping out and not openly supporting and advocating direct action as it is anybody's. If the union leaders had called for strikes, and the supposed 'leaders' of the anti-war movement had advocated blockades and sabotage then I believe many more people would have turned to direct action in various forms. They didn't, though. They copped out when their 'leadership' might have been needed most.

Referring to Donna's remark about people slagging off A to B marches in a previous post, would DF be equally inclined to criticise those involved in the A to B march protests who slagged off Anarchists and direct action crews for various reasons?

 

[chilango]

Pilgrim. I didn´t expect you to be so reliant on "leaders". I know what you mean, but it´s not sounding a million miles from the SWP´s old "TUC off your knees" slogans.

 

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim. I didn´t expect you to be so reliant on "leaders". I know what you mean, but it´s not sounding a million miles from the SWP´s old "TUC off your knees" slogans.

I don't consider them to be my leaders, but the fact remains that a lot of people look to that crowd for whatever reason.

Just because I don't acknowledge them as leading me personally, doesn't mean that others feel the same.

They had the chance to come out openly in favour of direct action and ran away from the opportunity.

 

[audiotech]

Some people were, yes.

"Some people" is not a "mass" though is it?

 

[Pilgrim]

"Some people" is not a "mass" though is it?

I didn't say it was.

If it had been, then maybe the war would have been stopped.

But there weren't enough people up for it, that is a fact.

But if the union bosses had had the balls to call for strike action, and the self-appointed leaders of the anti-war movement had had the balls to openly back and encourage as much direct action as possible, in as many forms as possible, then I do believe that civil unrest at home might, just might, have taken us out of the war.

But we'll never really know the answer to that question one way or the other.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

That depends on whether or not you see direct action as being a better idea.

Well not really. Firstly, it depends how many people are up for direct action. Secondly, whether they are or are not, one shouldn't fall for the fallacy whereby something is equated with nothing.

Also, one shouldn't think that (for instance) STW were in a position to get epople to do more than they actually did. Occasionally I'd like to see some of the people who verbally call for more - not a bad thing in itself - to actually try and get people to do it. If they can't, it strikes me that there may be reasons for this.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But if the union bosses had had the balls to call for strike action, and the self-appointed leaders of the anti-war movement had had the balls to openly back and encourage as much direct action as possible

This is the sort of thing that I take issue with these days. If they were "self-appointed", why not appoint yourself and people life yourselves instead? Why don't you take a lead? Could it be that you just don't have that much of a following, that much of a constituency? Could it be that there just weren't very many people who wanted to go down that road?

After all, nobody was stopping you from doing anything or calling for anything. Nobody.

 

[Pilgrim]

Well not really. Firstly, it depends how many people are up for direct action. Secondly, whether they are or are not, one shouldn't fall for the fallacy whereby something is equated with nothing.

Also, one shouldn't think that (for instance) STW were in a position to get epople to do more than they actually did. Occasionally I'd like to see some of the people who verbally call for more - not a bad thing in itself - to actually try and get people to do it. If they can't, it strikes me that there may be reasons for this.

If the union bosses had had the nerve to call for strikes and self-appointed anti-war leaders had called for direct action and supported those who took part, then I believe that many more people would have taken action of the kind I mentioned earlier.

And as far as getting people to do it goes, I've been involved in supporting direct actions for several years now. And I've seen the gains that can be made from direct action first hand.