manchester demo will u be going ?

[The Black Hand]

Rly? Thought you were talking about Afed chum

The point I was making was that your post has no relevance to this thred. The Swp and their forerunners being shite doesn't help your case at all - and perhaps even weakens it cos it puts you in the same bracket/basket as them, and you wouldn't want that, would you?.

 

[refugee]

It does not mean doing fuck all but leaflet a load of soggy lefties with a soggy leaflet.

What about arguing with soggy lefties on a soggy bulletin board?

 

[The Black Hand]

What about arguing with soggy lefties on a soggy bulletin board?

No, that doesn't count either....

 

[In Bloom]

The entire approx 20 years of its existence?

More mindless assertion. What a shock.

 

[The Black Hand]

More mindless assertion. What a shock.

True though, you've acheived nothing... No past glories at all...

 

[In Bloom]

True though, you've acheived nothing... No past glories at all...

The AF has acheived, and still acheives, what it was set up to do, produce and disseminate propaganda. That this isn't the sum total of the activity of members, or that most of us fully recognise the limitations of propaganda seems to escape you for some reason.

 

[The Black Hand]

The AF has acheived, and still acheives, what it was set up to do, produce and disseminate propaganda. That this isn't the sum total of the activity of members, or that most of us fully recognise the limitations of propaganda seems to escape you for some reason.

So that's nothing then.

 

[In Bloom]

So that's nothing then.

Whatever mate.

Shouldn't you be organising a "Miners for a better headstone for E.P. Thompson" fundraiser or something?

 

[The Black Hand]

Whatever mate.

Given that you provided nothing concrete, as in impact - then nothing seems to be an accurate representation of what you do.

 

[The Black Hand]

Shouldn't you be organising a "Miners for a better headstone for E.P. Thompson" fundraiser or something?

Why? I am doing several things already, and there is always more class struggle somebody can do, but your suggestion is pure irrelevance.

 

[The Black Hand]

Shall I clarify for In Bloom?

Organisation is meant to strengthen (spread) the class struggle, not only in terms of ideas, but also the material basis of class struggle. Ideas on their own are not enough to get the praxis wheel turning, in terms of developing new theory/approaches. In fact, Organise is so predictable it ceases to be of interest for those interested in relevant politics for the contemporary age because it has no life in it, a virtually complete lack of sensuousness.

The point is that you should be 'doing' anarchist things that have relevance rather than focus so much on irrelevant @ history. Irrelevant in the sense of disconnected from politics today (I presume you want to be anarchists?), anarchism is not a glee club for @ fetishists it is a practice...

 

[The Black Hand]

Hmmm, I would have thought that such a concise criticism had to be replied too, otherwise the articulation of the 'anarchism as a class struggle practice' argument wins

 

[JHE]

Brigadier Attica (Retired) explains how "to get the praxis wheel turning"

 

[In Bloom]

Hmmm, I would have thought that such a concise criticism had to be replied too, otherwise the articulation of the 'anarchism as a class struggle practice' argument wins

There's little point in me replying to something I've already answered several times.

 

[The Black Hand]

There's little point in me replying to something I've already answered several times.

No you haven't - you haven't answered the critique at all. You may think you have, but there is an objective world differerence. You haven't said one thing concrete that your org does....

 

[In Bloom]

No you haven't - you haven't answered the critique at all. You may think you have, but there is an objective world differerence. You haven't said one thing concrete that your org does....

Which is because it's an organisation of people who have been involved in concrete things and wish to develop theory in the context of that action, rather than an organisation that carries out action.

Anarchists are not the agent of revolution. Only an organised proletariat can bring about a communist revolution, which is why organising for action along ideological lines is often a complete waste of time.

 

[The Black Hand]

Which is because it's an organisation of people who have been involved in concrete things and wish to develop theory in the context of that action, rather than an organisation that carries out action.

Anarchists are not the agent of revolution. Only an organised proletariat can bring about a communist revolution, which is why organising for action along ideological lines is often a complete waste of time.

Not only did you fail to organise the proletariat even in a small local dispute, you failed to mention ANY other action at all! If you always remain at the level of ideas you are totally irrelevant and exist as a cult with missionary and apocalyptic viewpoints. Marx's 'thesis on Feuerbach' critisised such an approach in the 19th century.

AS for organising action on a popular ticket which can include diverse ideologies (the many different consciousnesses of the proletariat) this would seem to be a far better approach IMHO.

 

[In Bloom]

Not only did you fail to organise the proletariat...

Oh deary me, organise the proletariat is it now?

Chris Nineham called, he wants his politics back.

You plonker

 

[The Black Hand]

Oh deary me, organise the proletariat is it now?

Chris Nineham called, he wants his politics back.

You plonker

You say you 'Organise' - are you saying you are not the proletariat? Or that you don't really organise, you just pretend to want to. Its really not good enough pretending to want to organise and then NOT actually doing it. That would be hypocrisy...

Here's something I lifted from another site;

Orgs like the AF (and apologies if you are not in the AF) and other ultra leftists are wrong if they think the revolutionary process will be helped by them staying and theorising in their pure sects, for themselves alone, endlessly recycling the same boring bollox...

I increasingly think that there is some truth in the accusation that the AF are 'Anarchist Leninists'! You have a platform, you try and apply it, it doesn't work, you try it again and again and again!! Your practice NEVER changes regardless of the results of your practice, to me that suggests sterility, or even a zombie like state...

I tried to 'cuddle up' a few years ago but you (collective 'you') still thought that your org could go it alone (even if it was a de facto thing) so now I don't give a toss.

 

[Mickey Droy]

How could they resist?

 

[The Black Hand]

How could they resist?

I suppose the Zombie like state encourages a rut.

 

[The Black Hand]

You say you 'Organise' - are you saying you are not the proletariat? Or that you don't really organise, you just pretend to want to.

Cos if you've not had a significant role to play in any class struggle over the past 20 years, however small, then that means your theory and practice separate. Its really not good enough pretending to want to organise and then NOT actually doing it is it? That would be hypocrisy...

 

[The Black Hand]

You say you 'Organise' - are you saying you are not the proletariat? Or that you don't really organise, you just pretend to want to.

Cos if you've not had a significant role to play in any class struggle over the past 20 years, however small, then that means your theory and practice separate. Its really not good enough pretending to want to organise and then NOT actually doing it is it? That would be hypocrisy...

The above, leads to this;

Orgs like the AF (and apologies if you are not in the AF) and other ultra leftists are wrong if they think the revolutionary process will be helped by them staying and theorising in their pure sects, for themselves alone, endlessly recycling the same boring bollox...

I increasingly think that there is some truth in the accusation that the AF are 'Anarchist Leninists'! You have a platform, you try and apply it, it doesn't work, you try it again and again and again!! Your practice NEVER changes regardless of the results of your practice, to me that suggests sterility, or even a zombie like state...

 

[mk12]

im having deja vu

 

[The Black Hand]

Well I'm trying to get a reply that actually could answer the critique...

 

[Luther Blissett]

While we're waiting for a reply, how about a quote...

“The very process of building an anarchist movement from below is viewed as the process of consociation, self-activity and self-management that must ultimately yield that revolutionary self that can act upon, change and manage an authentic society”
-Murray Bookchin

Read his essay,Anarchism, Past and Present, here: Murray Bookchin: Anarchism, Past and Present

 

[Luther Blissett]

Which is because it's an organisation of people who have been involved in concrete things and wish to develop theory in the context of that action, rather than an organisation that carries out action.

Anarchists are not the agent of revolution. Only an organised proletariat can bring about a communist revolution, which is why organising for action along ideological lines is often a complete waste of time.

Are you saying that Durruti wasn't an agent of revolution then?

 

[The Black Hand]

Are you saying that Durruti wasn't an agent of revolution then?

Indeed, that is what he appears to be saying. Even in the smoke of Barcelona they (the Friends of Durruti) realised that smashing the capitalist state needed revolutionary attention, and that we/somebody/group cannot wait for that illusory time when the WHOLE proletarait, as if by magic, suddenly decide to do it all at once (cos they don't). Instead, in revolutionary situations (and the friends of Durruti are one example), there are things that need doing which necessitate revolutionaries living up to their name and seizing the initiative from the class enemy. Of course, the AF cannot acknowledge this because that would mean that their last 20 years has been wasted, and the old guard wouldn't want us to think that It would also mean changing their 'do nothing' praxis

 

[In Bloom]

Are you saying that Durruti wasn't an agent of revolution then?

No more than any other proletarian involved in a revolutionary situation.

 

[In Bloom]

Indeed, that is what he appears to be saying. Even in the smoke of Barcelona they (the Friends of Durruti) realised that smashing the capitalist state needed revolutionary attention, and that we/somebody/group cannot wait for that illusory time when the WHOLE proletarait, as if by magic, suddenly decide to do it all at once (cos they don't). Instead, in revolutionary situations (and the friends of Durruti are one example), there are things that need doing which necessitate revolutionaries living up to their name and seizing the initiative from the class enemy. Of course, the AF cannot acknowledge this because that would mean that their last 20 years has been wasted, and the old guard wouldn't want us to think that It would also mean changing their 'do nothing' praxis

Leaving aside the fact that despite your protestations, what you are saying here is the very essence of vanguardism (the most "advanced" section of the class must take the lead and show the plebs the way forward), not a single revolutionary situation in history has just arised as a result of conscious anarchist activity, millitants never have the initiative when a revolutionary situation begins. That's a simple matter of fact.

That revolutionaries need to organise to push things forward and put their argument across is not under dispute, but we are not in a revolutionary situation, in case it has escaped your attention, men make history, but not in circumstances of their own choosing (remember that one).