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Manchester congestion charge

Garf said:
but hey i guess no of these things bother you ...
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What bothers me is you wingeing about the control of the state and then criticising them for not doing enough.

It also bothers me that the only *facts* you use in your arguments are uncorrelated, insubstansive and media biased.

You don't attempt to face reality, prefering to hide behind fears of big brotheresque intrusion.

Neither do you display any understanding of the realities of policy making.

All of this is best demonstrated by your inistence that road pricing "doesn't work". You seem to be the only anarchist in the village that hasn't seen an improvement in London.
 
ELO said:
Don't mean to gang up on you Citydreams, but the simple fact of the matter is there is no demand for this type of thing outside London.

It really is a different world.
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Where do you get that idea from ELO?

Congestion So Bad 9 Out of 10 UK Businesses Support Road Pricing
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http://www.enworks.com/news.asp?news_id=1068

The report, for seven authorities including the Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Coventry city councils, cites widespread public concern over congestion levels and illustrates a problem that already costs businesses about £2.2bn a year. It is estimated that the region will lose 40,000 new jobs to other parts of Britain if the problem is not addressed - the equivalent of closing seven Longbridge car manufacturing plants.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/congestion/story/0,,1878594,00.html

ippr’s report, published ahead of the Eddington Transport Study set up by the Chancellor Gordon Brown and due to report next month, is based on an online poll of 1150 people, six focus groups and three day long deliberative workshops. The research shows that while more than 90 per cent of people see congestion as a serious problem....

...The research also highlights evidence from both London and Stockholm shows that once schemes have been introduced public attitudes have become more positive. For example, in London the net percentage in support of the congestion charge went from -5 in the month before it was introduced to +35 three months after.
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http://www.ippr.org.uk/pressreleases/?id=2461
 
Couldn't help noticing this bit in the Granuaid article CityDreams linked to
Cities around the country are considering road pricing schemes, including Manchester, Bristol and Tyne & Wear. Along with the West Midlands, they will be vying for a share of the government's transport innovation fund, which is offering up to £2.5bn a year to local authorities in England with inventive ideas for tackling congestion.
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2.5 billion. FFS no wonder the public finances are in a state.

BTW I don't see much support in those articles from Joe Public, as opposed to 'think tanks' and business.
 
citydreams said:
What bothers me is you wingeing about the control of the state and then criticising them for not doing enough.
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appropreate legislation which is enacted woudlr esolv ea lot of issue not legislation thrown togethe rto fit a manufactured problem...

citydreams said:
It also bothers me that the only *facts* you use in your arguments are uncorrelated, insubstansive and media biased.
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apart fromt he dti white paper you are ignoring or the dept of transport report ctied with in the observer which highlights the following...

Britain's first toll motorway is failing to cut congestion and generated many extra car trips, a Highways Agency study discloses.
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bit in bold for you hard of reading...

citydreams said:
You don't attempt to face reality, prefering to hide behind fears of big brotheresque intrusion.
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sorry that i fidn the concept of road toll more survellence cameras with number plate recognition and the potential to introduce car chipping to be a little big brotheresque... and that you see no issue with this constant survellence culture we are in goodie for you... thankfully most people don't hold this party toing line which seems to have more to do with your won poltical asperations and divorces you from any reality other than the blinkered nope we are always right attitdue.. but off you toddle if that suits yers some people will be saying acutally cock off we don't want any more govermental interferrence in things unless it's going to make a real genuine impact...

citydreams said:
Neither do you display any understanding of the realities of policy making.
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so you deny it' was in the queens speech and deny that it will reach assention or go for furthe rreading before the end of this siting of parliment???

is that what you are saying... that suddenly inexplicably the rules of mandiated government are changed becuase of your say so... do me a favour...

citydreams said:
All of this is best demonstrated by your inistence that road pricing "doesn't work". You seem to be the only anarchist in the village that hasn't seen an improvement in London.
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again you are failing to take account of what has been said...

TFLcofirmed that the increased congestion charge zone will increase congestion true or false...
the articule linked to from the DoT white paper highlioghts that the M6 Toll road is failing to releive congesiton and is creating more problems/increased car usuage true or false...

have you even bothered to read the refferences pulled up??

eh?

no cos it' safer inside the closeted place where you can sneer at geninue concernes and people becuase you are right... so keep up the ad hominens off you go ... water of a ducks back... it's not really strengthening your ailing case however to keep wriggling and responding to what you'd like to have debated rather than what is beign debated...
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
now one could argue that the socio economic factors at work here do not aurrcrately relfect the true cost of the useage in terms of enviromental damage bu this is easliy taken car of and needs no new system in place to do so...
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as it happens, the leading expert in the field of transport economics, Professor Goodwin, has been suggesting that the envirnomental costs of motor vehicles should be accounted for in fuel price duties (I bet you knew that already though didn't you Garf ;))
 
citydreams said:
All of this is best demonstrated by your inistence that road pricing "doesn't work". You seem to be the only anarchist in the village that hasn't seen an improvement in London.
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Road speeds are slower, and it now costs 8 quid to drive into town.

Some improvement.

(Yes I do accept it has raised some money, although not very efficiently)
 
ELO said:
2.5 billion. FFS no wonder the public finances are in a state.
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which is the real reason that most local councils are taking up or consdiering congestion charging ....

ELO said:
BTW I don't see much support in those articles from Joe Public, as opposed to 'think tanks' and business.
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there doesn't need to be it will be forced upon them like or not as i'm sure citydreams will inform us it's the 'only' answer....
 
citydreams said:
as it happens, the leading expert in the field of transport economics, Professor Goodwin, has been suggesting that the envirnomental costs of motor vehicles should be accounted for in fuel price duties (I bet you knew that already though didn't you Garf ;))
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yup i'm all for it... scrap the vat on fuel it's not a luxery and there's no good reason for the treasurey to be copping more on top of fuel duty increase fuel duty significantly along with automatic restes as stated evey 10 years.... also force the petrollium companies to carbon offset for each million liters sold the equiverlent, this should see and end to the ridiculious million pund aminute oil companies profits... and bring about a more sufficent cahnge in behaviours but it's still punitive... i don't want to see a situation where people introduce a petrol credits exchange system... or that petrol becomes a black market commodity either ... do you...
 
ELO said:
Road speeds are slower, and it now costs 8 quid to drive into town.

Some improvement.

(Yes I do accept it has raised some money, although not very efficiently)
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i don't think that when a full cost anaylisis is done on this we'll find it has raised as much as people expect it has or say it has... don't forget the hughe subsidy that london council tax payer smade to the scheme or continue to via their council tax...
 
ELO said:
Couldn't help noticing this bit in the Granuaid article CityDreams linked to
2.5 billion. FFS no wonder the public finances are in a state.
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Slightly sloppy journalism.. the Transport Innovation Fund is for all type of transport innovation. Only £200m is available for road user charging..

Cost of congestion to the UK, reckoned to be around £20billion a year!!
 
citydreams said:
Slightly sloppy journalism.. the Transport Innovation Fund is for all type of transport innovation. Only £200m is available for road user charging..

Cost of congestion to the UK, reckoned to be around £20billion a year!!
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even so... there is money for old rope going spare...
 
ELO said:
Road speeds are slower, and it now costs 8 quid to drive into town.

Some improvement.

(Yes I do accept it has raised some money, although not very efficiently)
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You don't live in London do you..

There are substantially less cars driving through the charging zone.
There have been less accidents
The quality of air is better.
Nearly £1billion has been raised and put into public transport.

I agree, it's not very efficient... for every person that pays the charge, £2 goes towards admin costs (i.e the private sector). This is due to change though as we modernise the London Congestion Charge.
 
citydreams said:
You don't live in London do you..

There are substantially less cars driving through the charging zone.
There have been less accidents
The quality of air is better.
Nearly £1billion has been raised and put into public transport.

I agree, it's not very efficient... for every person that pays the charge, £2 goes towards admin costs (i.e the private sector). This is due to change though as we modernise the London Congestion Charge.
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and put proces up....

how much exactly is the moderniseation of a scheme which has only been implamented and running for such a shor tspace of time going to cost ...

why is the TFL raising revue to fund private companies indirectly as well as directly via the c charge...

(ie the bus companies...)

the ccharge is a private comapnies subsidy and the xcuse livingstone neede as he was denioed tax raising powers becuase he fell out with labour... that being the case no he's back in with labour isn't i abotu time we modrnised the role of the lord mayor first... and gave it taxation powers thus negating the need ofr any congestion charging at all..
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
TFLcofirmed that the increased congestion charge zone will increase congestion true or false...
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This is what I mean by you don't see how policy making works.. you don't see the bigger picture.
 
citydreams said:
You don't live in London do you..
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No I don't, if you read post #5 you will see my point,-basically what you have started the rest of us look set to get. Therefore I think it is time those of us outside London took a closer look at this scheme as it could be heading our way.

There are substantially less cars driving through the charging zone.
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'Substantially' .........hmm....now there is a nice, vague, politicians word. The figures I have seen are a reduction of 15-20%....hardly 'substantial'. Basically 80% plus are still driving and having to pay for congestion that used to be free.

This is due to change though as we modernise the London Congestion Charge.
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Gawd help us all. :D :p
 
GarfieldLeChat said:
how much exactly is the moderniseation of a scheme which has only been implamented and running for such a shor tspace of time going to cost ...
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the contract with Capita runs out in 2009.. are you suggesting that we should scap the CC all together?



why is the TFL raising revue to fund private companies indirectly as well as directly via the c charge...
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That is the way government works in the 21st century.. it's a tough fact of life. I don't like it. We get paid to the thinking, we then outsource the management. However, if the CC had failed (as oh so many said it would), then at least it would be companies like Capita that would have had to foot the bill
 
citydreams said:
ippr’s report, published ahead of the Eddington Transport Study set up by the Chancellor Gordon Brown and due to report next month, is based on an online poll of 1150 people, six focus groups and three day long deliberative workshops. The research shows that while more than 90 per cent of people see congestion as a serious problem....
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Nice bit of selective quoting there. In trying to prove that there is support for this type of scheme, you use a quote that suggests otherwise but just snip the relevent bit off? Shameful tactics, those.

Here's the full quote:

ippr said:
ippr’s report, published ahead of the Eddington Transport Study set up by the Chancellor Gordon Brown and due to report next month, is based on an online poll of 1150 people, six focus groups and three day long deliberative workshops. The research shows that while more than 90 per cent of people see congestion as a serious problem less than 40 per cent said they supported road pricing as a solution.
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Not at all.. the quote was to highlight that congestion is seen as a problem, not whether there is support for road pricing. (hence, adding the .... at the end of the quote)
 
ELO said:
Don't mean to gang up on you Citydreams, but the simple fact of the matter is there is no demand for this type of thing outside London.

It really is a different world.
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Followed by:

citydreams said:
Where do you get that idea from ELO?

[insert selective quoting here]
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I don't really know much about this issue, but I know selective quoting followed by backtracking/lying when I see it. Nobody has claimed that congestion isn't a problem. The "no demand for this type of thing" was clearly a reference to road pricing schemes, not a denial of the existence of congestion problems.

Just pointing it out so that others know what you're doing.
 
It's not hard to see that there is deep distrust of road user charging - and I haven't got anything to gain from defending it.

My response was to the "it really is another world". Urban sprawl and congested roads go hand in hand the country over.
 
citydreams said:
the contract with Capita runs out in 2009.. are you suggesting that we should scap the CC all together?
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alright if it's such a success the proof is int he puddling why not suspend it for 18 months to collect relevant data with a 6 month break clause in that suspension and a 3 week inital take back so that if it means that people are gridlocked through out the C charge zone it can be switched back on if it's so successful as tfl have said then it will be and the point will be proved if however as has been shown previously that traffic into central london was falling anyways even before the c charge then it's make no odds... I mean ken could always organse a massive road improvement and calming scheme coupulled with unworkable contraflows and massive amounts of road words to justify the funding (like last time) manifacutring congestion where there was very limited pockets... then claim vilification of the whole thing...

either way as you can tell this wasn't what i was intially suggesting again you refuse to engauge on any level but the terms you dictate the debate isn't coached in your terms

it is as it is...

try discussing within that frame work...

besides the point being made was that a scheme this new shouldn't need modernising it should already be modern. It's a sign of very very very poor planning and developement of any organiseation or implamentation of practice that it will need entirely revamping after such a short space of time... not only that is that but how mcuh more money is going into the private hands and pockets of 'consultants' to revamp this scheme and who foots the bill?

well it won't be in the charge will it cos if it works as you claim then there'll be fewer cars less charge no extra cash so that'll come from londoners pockets like the intial charge did and the consulation prior to the charge....

so in effect you are saying don't stopt he band waggon we don't wanna get off...

citydreams said:
That is the way government works in the 21st century.. it's a tough fact of life. I don't like it. We get paid to the thinking, we then outsource the management. However, if the CC had failed (as oh so many said it would), then at least it would be companies like Capita that would have had to foot the bill
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not talking abotu that love i fully understasnd the proess of priavatistation to capita and why that happened i'm pointing out that we are subsidising companies like first and arriva and nataional etc etc and that a large perecentage of the C charge revenue raised has gone to pay for new fleets for these profit making companies and to increase their subisdised they are paid for runnign the routes...

now we can arguee all day abotut he benifits of a privatised public access transportation scheme however the simple fact remains each of the bus opperators made and returned a profit to their share hodlers each and every year and this is money which has come directly from the public purse in terms of direct and indirect funding now if you are telling me that is a good way to spend the capital made from the c charge taxation because it provides a small number of increases in buses on lodnons roads and a few more bus lanes then i'd say yes you do need to scrap this expensive subsidy on private companies which we should nto be supporting...
 
citydreams said:
It's not hard to see that there is deep distrust of road user charging - and I haven't got anything to gain from defending it.
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yeah you do as i have explained you are on the band waggon if you don't defend it and do so with your very core you and all that work inside of TFL will lose your employment....

citydreams said:
My response was to the "it really is another world". Urban sprawl and congested roads go hand in hand the country over.
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according to you however the country over is feed up of being told what to do by groups which do not know the intracies of the local sitaution and are like you apologists for the privatisation whole sale of pulbic services and the abdicatuion of public culpablity and responsiblities for those services....
 
citydreams said:
My response was to the "it really is another world". Urban sprawl and congested roads go hand in hand the country over.
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Are you suggesting you can make a serious comparison between the problems of Central London and other smaller cities?
 
ELO said:
Are you suggesting you can make a serious comparison between the problems of Central London and other smaller cities?
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Yes.. Why shouldn't you? Because of the scale factor? I agree that each city needs to be looked at for it's own issues individually, but the concepts are the same - road assigment according to a Waldrop Equilibrium using utility functions i.e. in layman's terms, traffic goes the quickest/cheapest route possible to get to its destination.

The most important difference between London and the provinces is, imo, a matter of affordability - Londoner's have a different value of time than elsewhere, however these are factors that can be estimated.

You haven't stated your opinion of the problem ELO. Do you agree that there are too many cars on the road?
 
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