Managers killing football

[tangerinedream]

You may be right. What started this was that I watched a Spurs Everton game from 64 the other night, not a great game by todays standards (ie Did they run fast) but a good game of probably equal skill to today.

What was evident was the lack of any mention of tactics by the commentry team. They would, however, say things like 'Bob Smith has decided to move further infield, hes getting cold out there'.

 

[ch750536]

So, you don't know a whole lot about the games history but are pronouncing on the past of the game and the way it's changed. Is that what is going on here or am I wrong?

I know a fair bit about the game, obviously not as much as you. can I still debate this or are you deeming me below your required standard.

Oh, debate does not have to be rude you know, its just chit chat bud.

 

[ch750536]

Bryan Robson?

Why is he a great motivator? What the feck has he ever done? - Why do you need to make a distinction between motivation and tactics? What the feck are you talking about?

Quite a few good cup runs, a good indicator of motivation.

What is wrong with Moyes' tactics

He has one and only one, other than that hes a great tactician.

Am I wrong, or are Celtic champions of their league and currently top of their division once again

You are not wrong. As I said, motivation is the most important thing.

 

[ch750536]

What is wrong with Moyes' tactics

Thought you knew something about football?

 

[tangerinedream]

I know a fair bit about the game, obviously not as much as you. can I still debate this or are you deeming me below your required standard.

Oh, debate does not have to be rude you know, its just chit chat bud.

My point is that without taking into account some crap managers from football history (actually Gordan Lee did well at Everton and somewhere else I can't remember for a bit) how can you compare then with now. I did not mean to be rude, (and I'm sorry for being a bit twattish), but to point out the debate is meaningless unless you view the whole picture.

Certainly managers like Ron Greenwood were tactitions in the 60s. As was Alf Ramsay, as was Joe Mercer. Certainly the last one was no 'motivator' like the ones you named in the op, but he was a very succesful manager in his day. I don't think Ron Greenwood was known for losing his rag either.

 

[tangerinedream]

Thought you knew something about football?

Erm, are Everton not unbeaten currently and isn't he the most succesful Everton manager since Howard Kendall? Didn't he take a side tipped byvirtually everyone for relegation, to Europe in one season? didn't he remold the side and make the top 4 with virtually no cash? Didn't they just demolish Liverpool (who have outspent them vastly in the last 10 years) 3-0 with one up front?

Didn't he also take Preston from the foot of the third tier to the brink of the top tier, whilst making a profit on players like Macken, Gregan and Heally for the club?

Or is he just shit?

 

[ch750536]

My point is that without taking into account some crap managers from football history (actually Gordan Lee did well at Everton and somewhere else I can't remember for a bit) how can you compare then with now. I did not mean to be rude, (and I'm sorry for being a bit twattish), but to point out the debate is meaningless unless you view the whole picture.

Certainly managers like Ron Greenwood were tactitions in the 60s. As was Alf Ramsay, as was Joe Mercer. Certainly the last one was no 'motivator' like the ones you named in the op, but he was a very succesful manager in his day. I don't think Ron Greenwood was known for losing his rag either.

Obviously I know greenwood, didn't see him as a master tactician myself but I stand corrected. Ramsay, so so, fantastic motivator. Mercer, did well for only a small part of his career, hardly the footprint of a great tactician.

If you have to lose your rag you havent motivated your team properly.

 

[tangerinedream]

Quite a few good cup runs, a good indicator of motivation.

He has one and only one, other than that hes a great tactician.


You are not wrong. As I said, motivation is the most important thing.

No, you said Strachan was a manager who should be different in his approach.

Robson had buckets of cash at Boro. Ravanelli, juninho, emerson etc.

Moyes has only one tactic at Everton, largely because Beattie and Johnson havn't clicked. He didn't play one up front at the beginning of the year, nor did he at Preston. (Where Heally, Macken and Cresswell* were all on the books)

*I think Cresswell was anyway.

 

[ch750536]

Erm, are Everton not unbeaten currently and isn't he the most succesful Everton manager since Howard Kendall? Didn't he take a side tipped byvirtually everyone for relegation, to Europe in one season? didn't he remold the side and make the top 4 with virtually no cash? Didn't they just demolish Liverpool (who have outspent them vastly in the last 10 years) 3-0 with one up front?

Didn't he also take Preston from the foot of the third tier to the brink of the top tier, whilst making a profit on players like Macken, Gregan and Heally for the club?

Or is he just shit?

Quite the opposite, I think he is and will be a fantastic manager. Great motivator you see, means he can be shit at the tactics and get away with it. However, I think if he did none of the tactical stuff at all he would do better.

 

[tangerinedream]

Obviously I know greenwood, didn't see him as a master tactician myself but I stand corrected. Ramsay, so so, fantastic motivator. Mercer, did well for only a small part of his career, hardly the footprint of a great tactician.

If you have to lose your rag you havent motivated your team properly.

Ramsey pionered a new style of play for the English National side.

Where did Joe Mercer do badly?

How on earth do you reconcile the final statement with those you cite in your op? (Ferguson and hitler to name two?)

 

[ch750536]

No, you said Strachan was a manager who should be different in his approach.

Missed your point.

Robson had buckets of cash at Boro. Ravanelli, juninho, emerson etc.

They were a better team when they left, however, you could argue the same for man U , arse, lfc etc.

Moyes has only one tactic at Everton, largely because Beattie and Johnson havn't clicked. He didn't play one up front at the beginning of the year, nor did he at Preston. (Where Heally, Macken and Cresswell* were all on the books)

We're agreed on moyes then I think.

 

[tangerinedream]

Quite the opposite, I think he is and will be a fantastic manager. Great motivator you see, means he can be shit at the tactics and get away with it. However, I think if he did none of the tactical stuff at all he would do better.

so, if he didn't tell the players where to play, who to mark and help them organise set pieces and such it would be better?

You are having a laugh I think.

One of the criticisms of the latter part of Sven's regime was precisely that the players had control, not Sven. Perhaps that had something to do with the fact that England didn't seem to have any kind of plan.

 

[ch750536]

Ramsey pionered a new style of play for the English National side.

Where did Joe Mercer do badly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Mercer

How on earth do you reconcile the final statement with those you cite in your op? (Ferguson and hitler to name two?)

Its one aspect of their man management. Personally I dont believe the players are motivated by fear, if that was the case then they wouldnt have the most loyal players in the league.

 

[ch750536]

so, if he didn't tell the players where to play, who to mark and help them organise set pieces and such it would be better?

You are having a laugh I think.

No, pick the squad, then pep talk then off you go. These poeple are experts at what they do.

One of the criticisms of the latter part of Sven's regime was precisely that the players had control, not Sven. Perhaps that had something to do with the fact that England didn't seem to have any kind of plan.

Blimey. If true then you read this the complete opposite of what I did.

 

[tangerinedream]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Mercer


Its one aspect of their man management. Personally I dont believe the players are motivated by fear, if that was the case then they wouldnt have the most loyal players in the league.

He moulded a talented young side at Villa and his team became known as the 'Mercer Minors'. He led Villa to victory in the inaugural League Cup in 1961 but was then sacked in 1964 on grounds of ill health.

Despite this his health improved and he went on to enjoy great success as a manager with Manchester City between 1965 and 1972. During his time at Maine Road he won the Second Division (1966), First Division (1968), FA Cup (1969), League Cup (1970), and European Cup Winners' Cup (1970).

He had a spell of manager at Coventry City from 1972 to 1975, during which Mercer was also caretaker manager of the English national football team for a brief period in 1974 after Sir Alf Ramsey's resignation.

Which spell did he fail in? - The one where he moulded a talented young team who won a cup?or the one where he took a side from a division below to win European honours and every domestic trophy? or the one where he ended up a director of the club after he retired?

do tell.

Clough, let's remember also had periods of mediocrity amid the spectacular success.

 

[ch750536]

Which spell did he fail in? - The one where he moulded a talented young team who won a cup?or the one where he took a side from a division below to win European honours and every domestic trophy? or the one where he ended up a director of the club after he retired?

do tell.

pasted from the same link

On August 18, 1955, two days before the first game of the season against Newcastle United, Mercer was appointed to replace Sheffield United manager Reg Freeman who had died during the close season. As a manager he began inauspiciously. He lacked experienced and his first season ended in relegation.

The rest of his time as manager was spent in the Second Division and in December 1958, wanting to move to a bigger club, he resigned and moved to Aston Villa who were bottom of the First Division. Although he led them to the FA Cup semi-finals he was relegated to Division Two for a second time.

He moulded a talented young side at Villa and his team became known as the 'Mercer Minors'. He led Villa to victory in the inaugural League Cup in 1961 but was then sacked in 1964 on grounds of ill health.

Clough, let's remember also had periods of mediocrity amid the spectacular success.

He lost it in the end, however, the success till then was unmatched.

 

[tangerinedream]

No, pick the squad, then pep talk then off you go. These poeple are experts at what they do.

No-one says they aren't. Surely though, they should have some kind of plans from the training ground, an understanding of the opposition (he's quick, slow etc) and an indication of how they are going to play together (i.e. as a team) - are they going to try and keep the ball and tire the opposition out, are they going to hit it at the channels cos the oppo full back is carrying a hamstring injury, are they going to pack the midfield and spoil the play?

It doesn't work if they all just do there own thing. A well drilled side who know what they are doing is a succesful team. I would suggest that is the way it is been for a long time.

 

[ch750536]

No-one says they aren't. Surely though, they should have some kind of plans from the training ground, an understanding of the opposition (he's quick, slow etc) and an indication of how they are going to play together (i.e. as a team) - are they going to try and keep the ball and tire the opposition out, are they going to hit it at the channels cos the oppo full back is carrying a hamstring injury, are they going to pack the midfield and spoil the play?

It doesn't work if they all just do there own thing. A well drilled side who know what they are doing is a succesful team. I would suggest that is the way it is been for a long time.

They can choose this as a team, with the mananger rather than dictation. It should be fluid, games change, oppositions can change.

 

[tangerinedream]

Missed your point.

It was your point not mine

They were a better team when they left, however, you could argue the same for man U , arse, lfc etc.

Erm, yes, but many millions lighter. Without Steve Gibson, Robson would have bankrupted Boro.

We're agreed on moyes then I think.

He's a good manager then?

 

[tangerinedream]

They can choose this as a team, with the mananger rather than dictation. It should be fluid, games change, oppositions can change.

What if everyone wants to play up front and no-one will go in goal?

 

[ch750536]

It was your point not mine

Not sure, take your word for it tho.

Erm, yes, but many millions lighter. Without Steve Gibson, Robson would have bankrupted Boro.

Sure, still got a good number of cup runs tho.

He's a good manager then?

Yes.

 

[ch750536]

What if everyone wants to play up front and no-one will go in goal?

When I am given work to do by my manager, we, as a team, sit down and have a chat about it. We devise a plan and then go with it. If things change, we adapt, often without any involvement of the manager. We are the experts at what we do so we appreciate that there has to be a 'tester' and there has to be a technical writer even though everyone may want to be architect.

 

[tangerinedream]

When I am given work to do by my manager, we, as a team, sit down and have a chat about it. We devise a plan and then go with it. If things change, we adapt, often without any involvement of the manager. We are the experts at what we do so we appreciate that there has to be a 'tester' and there has to be a technical writer even though everyone may want to be architect.

I actually agree with you to a certain point, in that a good side is one who are suffiantly confident in their own ability to depart from the plan and that there is a danger of 'over management.' However, it doesn't follow that an expert footballer is expert at seeing the whole of the game, or of reading the opposition tactics. Some are, some aren't.

There is a crucial different between putting a plan into action in work and in a football game, which is the idea that no-one at work is runnig round trying to disrupt you. - Would you suggest that to win a war, you send your troops into a battle by saying - just try hard and do what you want, no plan or anything from me - up to you boys and girls to sort it out?

 

[ch750536]

There is a crucial different between putting a plan into action in work and in a football game, which is the idea that no-one at work is runnig round trying to disrupt you. - Would you suggest that to win a war, you send your troops into a battle by saying - just try hard and do what you want, no plan or anything from me - up to you boys and girls to sort it out?

War is a fantastic example (the one given in the pub too oddly, hence my hitler reference).

In a war you would have a strategy, this is passed down the chain of command to the people on the front line (thinking ww2 here btw). The people on the front line are there as their skills were required, ie blow up a bridge etc. What was not done was to tell the people how to blow up the bridge. The generals decided they needed the bridge blowing up and nothing more, why? they are not the experts at blowing up bridges.

 

[jugularvein]

wenger is a good example. I think he is an excellent man manager (eat, sleep etc), and average motivator and an above average tactician.

I dont think wenger will ever be one of the greats and I dont think he will win a major trophy again.

utter shite. a whole season unbeaten? in this day and age? you ninny his influence on the game, especially in this country, has gone well beyond his own club and mark my words, when he retires, not only will he be a 'great' to arsenal fans, his impact on the game will be remembered.

 

[Termite Man]

Look at the number of players that dont give their all in games. Prime examples, LFC, Arse (of late). Ones where players give 100%(ish) , Man U, Reading, West Ham (till a month ago ), Bolton.

If a manager was to buy a player without any idea of how that player would tactically fit in to his squad he'd be a fucking idiot . So it stands to reason a manager decides how he wants his team to play and buys players to fit that style .
Once he has a squad he will work on getting the players to play in the style he thinks best suits the whole team , they will train to the strengths of the tactics decided by the manager which should also be the tactics best suited the players .
Once the players are ina game the manager will have to motivate them to win , but he will also have to look at how they are playing and introduce substitutions/tactics changes to get the win .

Thats a very basic outline of what a manager would do and motivation , while being a big part IMO is not the whole story . I agree a lot of the great managers have great motivational skills but to say a manager should just be a motivator is simpleminded bollocks .

 

[chieftain]

IMO it comes down to mentoring and tatics from the manager and allowing the players to do there professional job on the pitch.

If you have an incredible player let them do there stuff in the right position, if you have other more basic stock players who need telling, tell them what to do. Lets face it we all want a team of flair players but we cant have it all.

the examples I feel able to put forward through my knowledge are:

In the 60's Bill Nicholson a man who lived football and was a controlling type of manager (one the the best managers ever, and like wenger someone whose legacy lives on) allowed Danny Blanchflower as captain carte blanch on the pitch..... the result... the first double winners...

Its the same in other professions: Alfred Hitchcock was a complete control freak but allowed his designer Saul Bass total freedom with his projects... the result.... ground breaking design that influences the majority of designers even today

 

[jugularvein]

IMO it comes down to mentoring and tatics from the manager and allowing the players to do there professional job on the pitch.

If you have an incredible player let them do there stuff in the right position, if you have other more basic stock players who need telling, tell them what to do. Lets face it we all want a team of flair players but we cant have it all.

the examples I feel able to put forward through my knowledge are:

In the 60's Bill Nicholas a man who lived football and was a controlling type of manager (one the the best managers ever, and like wenger someone whose legacy lives on) allowed Danny Blanchflower as captain carte blanch on the pitch..... the result... the first double winners...

Its the same in other professions: Alfred Hitchcock was a complete control freak but allowed his designer Saul Bass total freedom with his projects... the result.... ground breaking design that influences the majority of designers even today

spot on.

when i saw you'd posted i was expecting a wenger-bash but i see you're a changed man chieftan!

 

[chieftain]

spot on.

when i saw you'd posted i was expecting a wenger-bash but i see you're a changed man chieftan!

Wenger is bloody good, mind you if he's daft enough to square up to our BMJ (big Martin Jol) again that might all change

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

People say good managers are motivators, but that is only part of the picture.

Good managers, at least those like Pardew (if we accept the recent slump is down to injuries and external factors), are good at spotting talent where nobody else spots it. For instance, reo coker for 700k. Bargain.