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Man Utd have won the premiership

muser said:
If the managers of the teams above you raise the bar and you don't...



The status quo at that time allowed for lapses. the EPL is mercilessly unforgiving these days. Fergie raised the bar to 4 loses a season, then came 3. Arsene met the challenge with his invincibles (kindly announcing to the press the season before hand) and chelsea raised it even further with a record haul.



this is debatable, but do you think carlo cudicini would have achieved the success mourniho has?
In regards to LFC, when we had a good squad, kenny dalgleish was happy to laud over the title, as soon as that team had to be disbanded he left sharpish and left his former colleague (sousness) to pick up the pieces. LFC have thrown money at the title, and even when we came second under houllier it was more through luck than design.




arsene wenger 4.5m a season (we got the figure in another thread) = title,
anyone else + 4.5 a season = no title.
Fergie initially won the title with little outlay.

where I do agree with you is that chelsea can stop any club acquiring a player that they REALLY want.






west ham and millwall in the FA cup, ispwich, everton finishing 5 and 4th respectively, but to you it doesn't count. Blackburn after winning the EPL finished 14th (haven't checked) the next season. Your argument hinges on the fact that the top team's success is perpetuated by their income. Explain blackburn's plight.

In response to the above, I believe that if some sets a standard it must be met by others to be afforded the same respect. Arsenal, man utd and chelsea have set those standards, its now for the rest to compete.
If villa win the premiership this season then they would've deserved it because of the nature of the competition. If the said same competition loses x amount of games and you lose less\draw less and win the title then all you can claim is that you avoided defeat more times than your rival (IYSWIM).
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Easy, Blackburn won the title in an era when the Champion League was not as big a pay day is it is now and like Chelsea were bankrolled to success at all costs, the difference being, clearly their success was not sustainable and almost as soon as the title was won, the side was being disbanded - Bad management also played a part - Ray Harford was an awful choice to replace Dalglish. Arsenal Man Utd and Chelsea have set the standards and the first two have pulled in at least £100 million in extra TV revenue as a result (fact). Please explain HOW Bolton/West Ham/whoever bridge that gap? (not withstanding the fact that Arsenal Utd Chelsea et al all are better commercial propositions for sponsors etc, so are making more money in other areas too)

Why will you not leave the tired line of argument of Wenger is a good manager and accept that I accept it is not ENTIRELY down to money, but am possiting the notion that the structure of the TV deal makes it easier for clubs to perpetuate their success. Would you agree on that fact?

Why the fuck does Everton finishing 5th or 4th make the league competitive? I have stated below, quite clearly that I am interested in genuine title challenges (such as those I have cited) by unlikely sides, not in the 5th most succesful english football club of all time, longest continuous occupants of a top flight berth and 9 time champions finishing 5th.

The fact the best you can do is cite two DEFEATED FA cup finalists and a massive team finishing 5th to support your argument shows how weak it is.

The league may have more 'quality players' - it may be a bigger revenue generator, it may have captured the imagination of people who like you seem to, think it's 'just like any other business' but in my mind it is fucking boring and stale, and just like last time we had this argument, nothing you have said convinces me otherwise and that anything other than a rich benefactor (e.g. Chelsea/Blackburn) is going to allow any other clubs into the exclusive group of powerful teams.

I have proved my point time and time again in terms of it being less competitive, I cannot actually prove 100% positive to you that the reason for this down in no small measure to the financial arrangements in the game today.

I suspect if I did, you would just change tack anyhow. ;)

I think it actually could get vaguely interesting in the next few years with Lerner, Eggman and Gaydamark splashing cash around but to be honest, that proves what I say above, that to really compete (i.e, finishing 8th isn't competing) with the best you have to have a fortune at your disposal.
 
Easy, Blackburn won the title in an era when the Champion League was not as big a pay day is it is now
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you keep changing your tune, everytime I bring something to support my theory. First it was the EPL money hadn't kicked in, now its the CL wasn't big enough.

Why will you not leave the tired line of argument of Wenger is a good manager and accept that I accept it is not ENTIRELY down to money, but am possiting the notion that the structure of the TV deal makes it easier for clubs to perpetuate their success. Would you agree on that fact?
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to get you to accept its entirely to do with management, I'm trying to get you to see that management plays a bigger part than the financial considerations. All the points I have raise are towards that end.
Why I harp on about wenger is because he is an OLD FASHION manager, he competes with what he has and succeeds. Clough to some degree was the same.


Why the fuck does Everton finishing 5th or 4th make the league competitive? I have stated below, quite clearly that I am interested in genuine title challenges (such as those I have cited) by unlikely sides, not in the 5th most succesful english football club of all time, longest continuous occupants of a top flight berth and 9 time champions finishing 5th.
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You never did answer my question in regards to cudicini. If you say no, then my case is vindicated. If yes then I couldn't argue as then we'd be splitting hairs.

The fact the best you can do is cite two DEFEATED FA cup finalists and a massive team finishing 5th to support your argument shows how weak it is.
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ispwich are a massive team :confused:
You seem to view success in terms of what teams win, but for WHU to get to the final in their first season back is considered a success by most supporters.
Was it LFC's massive budget that secured the services of the player that scored the equalising goal or a product of our youth academy.

The league may have more 'quality players' - it may be a bigger revenue generator, it may have captured the imagination of people who like you seem to, think it's 'just like any other business' but in my mind it is fucking boring and stale, and just like last time we had this argument, nothing you have said convinces me otherwise and that anything other than a rich benefactor (e.g. Chelsea/Blackburn) is going to allow any other clubs into the exclusive group of powerful teams.
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you will continue to shift the goal post, as I've mentioned in my first paragraph until your blinkered view sees what it wants. You agreed that money didn't help Newcastle, leeds nor blackburn, but you contradict yourself by saying its buying Man utd, chelsea and arsenal the title.
You won't address the teams that have nearly bankrupted themselves in pursuit of the title; middlesborough, LFC, leeds, blackburn, newcastle and spurs over recent seasons.
You're tired of watching teams excel at what they do. Its strange that you haven't tired of blackpool's recent winning streak (hence my little dig earlier).


I have proved my point time and time again in terms of it being less competitive, I cannot actually prove 100% positive to you that the reason for this down in no small measure to the financial arrangements in the game today.
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No one is asking that you prove your case to the nth degree, all I would like is that you stop bleeting on about money being the MAJOR factor in a club's success.

I suspect if I did, you would just change tack anyhow. ;)
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you know I'm too opinionated for that ;)

I think it actually could get vaguely interesting in the next few years with Lerner, Eggman and Gaydamark splashing cash around but to be honest, that proves what I say above, that to really compete (i.e, finishing 8th isn't competing) with the best you have to have a fortune at your disposal.
Click to expand...

How long do you envisage, anyone of these teams breaking into the top 4? Maybe we can set that as the barometer for our differing viewpoints.
 
muser said:
you keep changing your tune, everytime I bring something to support my theory. First it was the EPL money hadn't kicked in, now its the CL wasn't big enough.



I'm not trying to get you to accept its entirely to do with management, I'm trying to get you to see that management plays a bigger part than the financial considerations. All the points I have raise are towards that end.
Why I harp on about wenger is because he is an OLD FASHION manager, he competes with what he has and succeeds. Clough to some degree was the same.




You never did answer my question in regards to cudicini. If you say no, then my case is vindicated. If yes then I couldn't argue as then we'd be splitting hairs.



ispwich are a massive team :confused:
You seem to view success in terms of what teams win, but for WHU to get to the final in their first season back is considered a success by most supporters.
Was it LFC's massive budget that secured the services of the player that scored the equalising goal or a product of our youth academy.



you will continue to shift the goal post, as I've mentioned in my first paragraph until your blinkered view sees what it wants. You agreed that money didn't help Newcastle, leeds nor blackburn, but you contradict yourself by saying its buying Man utd, chelsea and arsenal the title.
You won't address the team that have nearly bankrupted themselves in pursuit of the title; middlesborough, LFC, leeds, blackburn, newcastle and spurs over recent seasons.
You're tired of watching teams excel at what they do. Its strange that you haven't tired of blackpool's recent winning streak (hence my little dig earlier).




No one is asking that you prove your case to the nth degree, all I would like is that you stop bleeting on about money being the MAJOR factor in a club's success.



you know I'm too opinionated for that ;)



How long do you envisage that anyone of these teams will break into the top 4? Maybe we can set that as the barometer for our differing viewpoints.
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I am know too pissed to reply sensibly, however I will wish you a very happy New Year and thank you for the good grace with which you have have argued over the last year and wish the O's the best of luck for the rest of the year. I just wish that for once the Prem would suprise me - I actually want to look forward to Motd and want more games like Sheff Utd v Arsenal, I want the top league to be as exciting as it could be - I think the financial arrangements could be much better, you think they are ok. I agree with you that of course, other factors play a part. I feel like the Premier league is a bit like F1 at the moment, - departing from the finances for a moment, my genuine opinion is that I am bored by it and I honestly wish I wasn't.

League One is interesting to me as this year the top 6 are entirely different than this time last season. Of course some teams have been promoted, but you have teams like Brentford going from one of the best to the worst, I predicted Huddersfield would go up but they've done nothing, Yeovil were Tearing the division up for a while, we have gone from 19th to 5th,, scunny are joint top - I would have put money they would have faded by now. - It confounds my expectations and the prem isn't like that - every other division seems to be.

The main difference between the Prem and every other division seems to be the financial arrangements (at the heart of it) ergo, I keep going on about it. It's not motivated by a bloody minded determination to prove you wrong or me right, it's because I wish the game I love was attractive to me at it's ultimate level.
 
tangerinedream said:
I am know too pissed to reply sensibly, however I will wish you a very happy New Year and thank you for the good grace with which you have have argued over the last year and wish the O's the best of luck for the rest of the year. I just wish that for once the Prem would suprise me - I actually want to look forward to Motd and want more games like Sheff Utd v Arsenal, I want the top league to be as exciting as it could be - I think the financial arrangements could be much better, you think they are ok. I agree with you that of course, other factors play a part. I feel like the Premier league is a bit like F1 at the moment, - departing from the finances for a moment, my genuine opinion is that I am bored by it and I honestly wish I wasn't.

League One is interesting to me as this year the top 6 are entirely different than this time last season. Of course some teams have been promoted, but you have teams like Brentford going from one of the best to the worst, I predicted Huddersfield would go up but they've done nothing, Yeovil were Tearing the division up for a while, we have gone from 19th to 5th,, scunny are joint top - I would have put money they would have faded by now. - It confounds my expectations and the prem isn't like that - every other division seems to be.

The main difference between the Prem and every other division seems to be the financial arrangements (at the heart of it) ergo, I keep going on about it. It's not motivated by a bloody minded determination to prove you wrong or me right, it's because I wish the game I love was attractive to me at it's ultimate level.
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I wish I was pissed:(
Have a happy new year, and I hope you are as pissed as happy ;)
I do understand your frustration, and sometimes feel it myself (LFC, bewildered giants that they are), but I revel in it. Theres nothing more satisfying than watching a team play, knowing the manager has prepared them, honed them, an instrument of his will as it were.
Imagine for a moment its a game of chess, some managers go into games knowing they're missing pieces and seek only to contain their opponents. content not to be overwhelmed. you watch your opponents moves intently, patiently, then hark!
an opening and your team take full advantage. But wait, its not over yet theres half an hour left and your opponents are wounded, not dead.

For me its like that.

I must say I've grown fond of our discussions. Maybe one day I'll get the chance to see the O's in blackpool (though It'll have to be this season as I fear you're going up :) )
 
jen_the_blonde said:
As chelsea have so much money they have two of the top 5 keepers in the premiership - one of whom doesn't normally get to play first team football.
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Considering the current situation with chelsea goalkeepers, are you being incredibly naive, or ironic, or something.

And ManU have a very large squad who are lucky to ever see the bench in a premiership game. Everton wanted to buy one of them recently, Alan Smith, and ManU weren't interested.

Or take the example a boy on our senior NI international team - Sunderland want to sign him - Fergie says no.
Jonny Evans
Date of Birth: 1988-01-03
Place of Birth: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Height: 6'2 ft
Weight: 12st 2lbs
Career Details
Club: Man Utd (No 0)
Starts: 0
Position: Defence
Sub On: 0
Sub Off: 0
Goals: 0
Yellow Cards: 0
Red Cards: 0
Minutes On Pitch: 0
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http://www.football.co.uk/man_utd/players/jonny_evans_114473.shtml

According to this website ManU have a squad of 57. How are they all getting first team experience in ManU?
 
ZAMB said:
Considering the current situation with chelsea goalkeepers, are you being incredibly naive, or ironic, or something.

And ManU have a very large squad who are lucky to ever see the bench in a premiership game. Everton wanted to buy one of them recently, Alan Smith, and ManU weren't interested.

Or take the example a boy on our senior NI international team - Sunderland want to sign him - Fergie says no.

http://www.football.co.uk/man_utd/players/jonny_evans_114473.shtml

According to this website ManU have a squad of 57. How are they all getting first team experience in ManU?
Click to expand...
Evans is only 18. I'd like to see him go to Sunderland but it would be silly to get rid of him that young. And ManU's squad isn't that big, quite a few of the numbers aren't taken.

Tis sad to see Mourinho slagging SWP, and Kalou. Shevvers should get out asap.
 
ZAMB said:
Considering the current situation with chelsea goalkeepers, are you being incredibly naive, or ironic, or something.

And ManU have a very large squad who are lucky to ever see the bench in a premiership game. Everton wanted to buy one of them recently, Alan Smith, and ManU weren't interested.

Or take the example a boy on our senior NI international team - Sunderland want to sign him - Fergie says no.

http://www.football.co.uk/man_utd/players/jonny_evans_114473.shtml

According to this website ManU have a squad of 57. How are they all getting first team experience in ManU?
Click to expand...

Just because they're both injured - which is a freak coincidence, doesn't make it a less valid point. Just because it's not the case now doesn't mean it hasn't been for months.
Yes, man u have a large squad - but there aren't so many established players who would be playing first team or international football (sorry, with the exception of footballing giants Northern Ireland) as chelsea. Or at least that's how it appears, just from looking at the quality of the benches. And fergie'll do loan outs as well.
To tangerine_dream, thanks some valid points there...I guess the academy thing can be overplayed, and I'll admit my knowledge isn't foolproof on it - but certainly kids seem to come in young, even if it's not their first club, and have their careers developed there, rather than being bought when they're on fire and then getting pissed on. And yes, swp, parker should've known but when you're young and there's £££££'s getting waved under your eyes perhaps you go a bit blind.
As to who I support. Meh. I'm not sure i do particularly. Always was Norwich, but since i've moved to east london I keep an eye out for west ham as well.
 
Rumour has it that muser is in talks with Jose about a consultancy role...

the Special One said:
Well, you know, we feel that with his superior ability to read trends in the game of football, we simply had to sign him, because he can see the future and we know that if he can see it, he can change it.
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:eek:

United didn't look very champion-ly tonight. Good game, but both sides looked pretty average.
 
Utd are a long way from having the title won though if Villa can win tonight ( unlikely ) then have to say Utd should not throw it away. They still have to go to Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea all of which can concievably be lost though the way they are playing and provided the players stay fit and whether or not they bring anyone in, plus the fact that there goal difference is worth another point things are looking good.

Utd have been in this form for over a year now, the majority of the football they play is in a different league to the sh*t that chelsea produce...long way to go though is good to watch Jose squirm....wicked management getting rid of Gallas and Huth:)
 
DRINK? said:
Utd have been in this form for over a year now, the majority of the football they play is in a different league to the sh*t that chelsea produce...long way to go though is good to watch Jose squirm....wicked management getting rid of Gallas and Huth:)
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I'm basing my prediction on that.
 
nonamenopackdrill said:
It's not a prediction, it's a pronouncement.

Or are you going back on your "it's done already" pronouncement.
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Pronouncement.

–noun 1. a formal or authoritative statement.
2. an opinion or decision.
3. act of pronouncing.

Its why people avoid talking to you.
 
muser said:
Pronouncement.

–noun 1. a formal or authoritative statement.
2. an opinion or decision.
3. act of pronouncing.

Its why people avoid talking to you.
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Ah, the dictionary - haven to students without a clue how to start an essay and people who can't admit their wrong. Pedantryland is the other side of Bat Country you know.
 
muser said:
Pronouncement.

–noun 1. a formal or authoritative statement.
2. an opinion or decision.
3. act of pronouncing.

Its why people avoid talking to you.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what he's saying

what's your point caller?
 
muser said:
when has an opinion become a matter of fact?
Even balbi got that, since he sought tarnish my wit.
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It also means a 'formal or authoritative statement' which can be taken to mean a statement of fact.

Are you some special type of super idiot bred in a laboratory as a sick joke?
 
JTG said:
It also means a 'formal or authoritative statement' which can be taken to mean a statement of fact.

Are you some special type of super idiot bred in a laboratory as a sick joke?
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Formal or authoritive, neither are associated with FACT. Which is almost explicitly past tense.

The personal insults are getting marginally better, shame your insight doesn't match it.
 
JTG said:
It also means a 'formal or authoritative statement' which can be taken to mean a statement of fact.

Are you some special type of super idiot bred in a laboratory as a sick joke?
Click to expand...

Surely that's only true if you assume an authoritive or formal statement is actually a matter of fact? Which would surely make you an idiot, no?

Anyway, as a Man Utd fan I think it's a bit silly people posting this kind of thread, especially as I don't want to look a right cock if we fuck it up. I mean don't you remember ole Kevin Keegan and his "I'd love it!"?

There's a long way to go, lets just hope we keep playing like we have been.

I was on 606 last night and some of the prawn sandwhich Man Utd fans were talking complete shite about Ronaldo's performance against Newcastle. I mean for fucksake what do these pricks want? Two goals every game?

The worst thing about supporting Man Utd is some of your fellow Man Utd fans. Two guy's I know supported Leeds and Blackburn respectively up until 1997 and then changed to Man Utd, I mean ffs that's embarrassing!
 
muser said:
Formal or authoritive, neither are associated with FACT. Which is almost explicitly past tense.

The personal insults are getting marginally better, shame your insight doesn't match it.
Click to expand...

Two can play the definition game

au·thor·i·ta·tive (ə-thôr'ĭ-tā'tĭv, ə-thŏr'-, ô-thôr'-, ô-thŏr'-) pronunciation
adj.

1. Having or arising from authority; official: an authoritative decree; authoritative sources.
2. Of acknowledged accuracy or excellence; highly reliable: an authoritative account of the revolution.
3. Wielding authority; commanding: the captain's authoritative manner.

I can't be arsed to engage with you properly because your opinions are such demonstrable twaddle. Stop assuming it's because I have no answer to you please, it's too funny.
 
copliker said:
Evans is only 18. I'd like to see him go to Sunderland but it would be silly to get rid of him that young. And ManU's squad isn't that big, quite a few of the numbers aren't taken.

Tis sad to see Mourinho slagging SWP, and Kalou. Shevvers should get out asap.
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Mourinho didn't mention any names - the press filled in the blanks - as usual - anything to knock Chelsea.

I'd like to see Evans playing in the UK - last year Fergie sent him on loan to Antwerp. He is an excellent player for the international team and other teams in the premiership seem to have had some success with teenage defenders. A lot of people want to swipe that lad from ManCity.

Iam There's been a lot of speculation about him since Sunderland said they wanted him but I've seen nothing to suggest that Fergie has changed his mind.
 
I get the impression sometimes with Sky that they repeat sports news stuff from other places, so you sometimes get somewhat conflicting reports from one of their pages to the next.

But as far as I've read, he's going on loan for the rest of the season. I don't think it's much of a scoop or anything, so Sky may not have taken much notice of it. It must be something like that, cos it can't possibly be something that I've heard about first. Never, ever happens...

:D
 
Savage Henry said:
They are 6 points clear and still have to play Chelsea at Stamford Bridge . I wouldn't claim they have won the premiership yet :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
& arsenal at Highbury & liverpool at Anfield IIRC
sorry - just read this on page 3 - sorry for repitition
 
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