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"Malcolm X was gay" Tatchell claims sparks black racialist fury

Tatchell's made some good points on homophobia in music, and he's obviously got guts - but he's overstepping the mark, and sliding into an bit of a dodgy, or at least obsessive stance on black sexuality, and people in general.
 
ernestolynch said:
Shit. That's actually a good point.

Ah fuck 'em.
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Quite. Thing is, I don't think that Malcolm X's politics were about any single issue.

He started out hating white people per se because of his own experiences. But he soon outshone the Nation of Islam because he was basically more brilliant than Elijah Muhammed and the other leaders. That is why they (more than likely) killed him.

Towards the end of his life, following his Haj to Mecca, Malcom X's politics were leaning more towards international socialism that black nationalism and seperatism.

Malcolm X was the greatest leader that Black Americans - and arguably ordinary working Americans - never had. He was a genius.
 
I think the best is to just ignore this crap. Like most of politics they're putting on a show.. If nobody watches they'll stop.
 
fanta said:
And anyway, even if he was gay, which I very much doubt, so what?
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Well, if you read the stuff in the link from the book it does rather strongly suggest that he was at least bi and had a pretty extended interest in blokes - in his early days anyway. As for why Tatchell is bringing this up now - i'd suggest he's trying to make some point to those 'progressive' black groups he thinks his lot could work with but that he feels are too scared to openly work with gay groups. It's a bit of a patronising way of going about it though. But of course, the immediate target is the NOI who are virulently and vocally homphobic, but who, at the same time, trade off the legacy of Malcom X.
 
Gavin Bl said:
Tatchell's made some good points on homophobia in music, and he's obviously got guts - but he's overstepping the mark, and sliding into an bit of a dodgy, or at least obsessive stance on black sexuality, and people in general.
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I think his criticism of the MOBO's (shitest awards cermony ever) is valid as well as his criticism of groups like NOI. It's just this Dr Freud stuff that pisses me off. Besides as Fanta says what difference does it make (to gay black men or women) ? If he really thinks that because Malcolm X was gay that's going to help young gay black kids then he's talking crap. All this bullshit about rolemodels simply ignores the real problems.
 
fanta said:
Malcolm X was the greatest leader that Black Americans - and arguably ordinary working Americans - never had. He was a genius.
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Could you exapnd on that Fanta?
I don't know much about Malcolm X, but what I do know wouldn't lead me to make that statement. Could people with decent knowledge on this tell me about him- why do you think he was so good?
 
don't know much about Malcolm X, but what I do know wouldn't lead me to make that statement
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The problem with him I think was that he was murdered as his ideas were entering into a very promising direction - although he was in a real flux at the time, so socialists claim him as a socialist, muslims as a muslim and so on. Its hard to say where he would have ended up.

Given Americas sharp racial divides, I'm not sure that the social situation would have allowed him to make the leap to be a leader of whites too.

Someone of his intelligence and commitment would have been a critical voice in late 60s America though.
 
That's sort of what i'm getting at- what makes him so intelligent? As far as I know he was a great orator with largely shite politics who seemed to be moving in a socialist direction...
 
kropotkin said:
Could you exapnd on that Fanta?
I don't know much about Malcolm X, but what I do know wouldn't lead me to make that statement. Could people with decent knowledge on this tell me about him- why do you think he was so good?
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It is mainly my own opinion.

Certainly the impression I got from reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X, which I would recommend.

I think Malcolm X's politics were evolving with capital, economics and class becoming more important aspects that shaped his outlook than simply race.

One could also argue that Dr Martin Luther King was greatest leader they never had. Maybe he was, though I consider him to be more a prophet for all peoples.
 
All Tatchell needs do now is embrace the Womens Institute and he's pulling all the big three oppressed groups together.
 
Gavin Bl said:
The problem with him I think was that he was murdered as his ideas were entering into a very promising direction - although he was in a real flux at the time, so socialists claim him as a socialist, muslims as a muslim and so on. Its hard to say where he would have ended up.
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He was both. That is possible. I'm convinced he would have ended up as an international socialist.
 
I'd say that the questions that MX were asking were leading inevitably to a far better understanding of how and why the world operates as it currently does - he was on the path to going beyond shallow accounts of simple racism and into far more effective teritory. And he was bringing a fuck of alot of others alonng on the journey with him - and that's why he was so dangerous to both black and white bosses (including the NOI). Imagine if he'd ever hooked up with the (D)RUMs or LRBW types - then we;d see some serious stuff going on...
 
butchersapron said:
I'd say that the questions that MX were asking were leading inevitably to a far better understanding of how and why the world operates as it currently does - he was on the path to going beyond shallow accounts of simple racism and into far more effective teritory. And he was bringing a fuck of alot of others alonng on the journey with him - and that's why he was so dangerous to both black and white bosses (including the NOI). Imagine if he'd ever hooked up with the DRUM or LRBW types - then we;d see some serious stuff going on...
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No question his survival would have been good news for all. But I think his main concern would have been a far more progressive black empowerment agenda with much less religious dogma. A sort of Germaine Greer equivalent.
 
He was both. That is possible. I'm convinced he would have ended up as an international socialist.
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Well he had both sets of ideas rattling round inside his head at the time of his assassination. He did make some pro-socialist comments (such as saying most of the anti-racist whites he met were socialists), but he did still fundamentally see him self as a muslim.

Its an interesting comparison with King who was heading towards socialist ideas at the time of his murder.

I suspect that X would have ended up as a mish mash of the lot - both DRUM and the Panthers saw themselves as socialists, but they remained black nationalists too.
 
exosculate said:
No question his survival would have been good news for all. But I think his main concern would have been a far more progressive black empowerment agenda with much less religious dogma. A sort of Germaine Greer equivalent.
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I think you're utterlly mad if you believe that. Someone who always encouraged and practiced the militant independence of any groups he was involved with, who was rapidly discarding all the various authoritarianisms inherent in the traditional US black groups and who had already seen through the traditional left - someone who challenged these groups from the very roots, was never going to end up on Big Brother or accept some half-way series of surface reforms. Nothing in his life history or appraoch suggests he was ever going to compromise even for a second.
 
Nothing in his life history or appraoch suggests he was ever going to compromise even for a second.
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I agree - thats why I think even if he hadn't been murdered in 1965, he probably would have been in the years that followed, albeit from a different source.
 
The Autobiography is a great read, it was fortunate to catch him at the right time, and wisely they decided to present his changing views as they were at each stage of the transition. It would have been easy to go back and change the unrepentant NOI stuff, but it is all the more powerful for presenting it as it was, and then chronicling the short period between the break with them and his murder.
 
butchersapron said:
I think you're utterlly mad if you believe that. Someone who always encouraged and practiced the militant independence of any groups he was involved with, who was rapidly discarding all the various authoritarianisms inherent in the traditional US black groups and who had already seen through the traditional left - someone who challenged these groups from the very roots, was never going to end up on Big Brother or accept some half-way series of surface reforms. Nothing in his life history or appraoch suggests he was ever going to compromise even for a second.
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I'm really not sure how you have drawn these conclusions. I meant the old Germaine Greer character, though its not unheard of for radical peeps to moderate with age. I do agree he wouldn't have ended where Germaine has though.

He was still preoccupied with Islam and Black nationalism when he died - yes he was looking at other things - but he hadn't discarded stuff that would have helped him in the direction you have outlined above.
 
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