Making use of public space

[soloqi]

The is a hypothetical

Hello there I just wondering if a group of people had in mind to have a street carnival, without asking permission from the authorities do you know of anyone that may be willing to give some advice and tips on organizing such an event, this is about non profit and encouraging people to take back spaces that were once called public space.

Were not looking to get know by other people or be seem on the media in a bad light. Its simply a statement to say we a able to organise our selves and don’t need big brother to give us permission to be people and want to be able to express them selves.

Please PM me and Thank you for reading.

 

[chymaera]

The is a hypothetical

Hello there I just wondering if a group of people had in mind to have a street carnival, without asking permission from the authorities do you know of anyone that may be willing to give some advice and tips on organizing such an event, this is about non profit and encouraging people to take back spaces that were once called public space.

If it is in your own street preferably one without through traffice or a cul de sac, you should have no problems as long as you don't make a noise after 23.30, or sell alcohol.

 

[Bristly Pioneer]

there is a guide on the reclaim the streets site here



How to sort a street party:
http://rts.gn.apc.org/sortit.htm

 

[soloqi]

Im going to be honest, were not really looking to have a street party, but have a party/mini carnival in an existing park/piece of open space but not go asking permission from the authorities, because we believe people can organise themselves and be responsible for each other.

By asking permission from the authorities is to admit that people have no power,and proof that we do not live in a free society. But an institutional society where everyone has to adhere to political correctness.

Thanks for the help and any more advice will be welcomed.

 

[Jografer]

... before or after school...

 

[quimcunx]

... before or after school...

Of course people can organise themselves, but, 2 give one example, what if some other people had decided to have a little festival there on the same day and organised themselves? someone has to be in charge of the diary...

 

[Dillinger4]

I am skeptical as to how much space remains public.

CF Non-Places: An Introduction to Anthropology of Supermodernity by Marc Auge.

 

[free spirit]

Im going to be honest, were not really looking to have a street party, but have a party/mini carnival in an existing park/piece of open space but not go asking permission from the authorities, because we believe people can organise themselves and be responsible for each other.

By asking permission from the authorities is to admit that people have no power,and proof that we do not live in a free society. But an institutional society where everyone has to adhere to political correctness.

Thanks for the help and any more advice will be welcomed.

erm, I can kind of see where you're coming from, but thing you may be going at this from the wrong angle.

if you want to show that people can organise themselves and be responsible for each other, and want to be taken seriously, then why not actually go and have a meeting with the local park manager, explain what you want to do, and he can then book the event in to the parks diary to make sure it doesn't clash with any other events.

Depending on the scale of the thing, it's likely that you may not even need to apply for a seperate license as a lot of councils now already hold permanent entertainment licenses for their parks under the new licensing laws, and you only need to get the park managers permission to hold an event.

If it's likely to be a big event with hundreds of people (or thousands) then the park manager may decide that you'd need to have extra toilets and a couple of security to deal with any problems, and you will probably also need to get some public liability insurance to cover you in case someone get's injured and decides to sue you or something similar.

The park manager will also probably be able to point you in the direction of funding to pay for all of this - councils often have small scale funding for events and such like, or you may want to try the national lottery awards for all, who definately fund upto £10k for community events.

You may need to set up a small not for profit organistion to run this, with a constitution and maangement committee... this is a piece of piss to set up, I'd happily help you write this all up.

Bottom line is if you approach people properly you'll most likely get taken seriously, and be able to organise an event that can be advertised properly so as many people as possible get to enjoy the event, and has toilets, bins and stuff so it's a safe, clean event. If you just randomly turn up in a park with a sound system, then you're likely to be told to stop being pricks.

I speak as someone who was a major part in running a free community environmental festival for 9 years that grew to an 8 stage, 12,000 people 2 day festival.

I've also done more than my fair share of unlicensed beach, forest and warehouse parties.

 

[Nixon]

nice post free spirit.some good advice there

 

[chymaera]

Bottom line is if you approach people properly you'll most likely get taken seriously,

Agreed, it has always worked for me.

 

[soloqi]

Many thanks for the reply all.
I have taken on board what most of what you guys have said and its all relevant.
First thing i not really going to be a party but more a carnival but on a small scale, but with the fact that theres going to be no money involved in this project.
Its about people getting together and being able to express themselves with arts/dance and music. Where not really expecting people to turn up and sell alcohol either, we want to have and little fun make some noise and leave while showing respect for the environment and the people around the area.

Ive taken some aspects of reclaim the streets and changed it go suite what we have in mind, the bust card advise was useful as well however i would really like it if no arrests were made..

Its also a statement to say we hate the fact that to beable to want to hold some event i have to ask permission.

Imagine this where ou and your mates are in a part just having a laugh, how big could this crowd get before it a problem for health and safety in this p.c mad world. What if you happened yo have about 300 friends ?

Peace and love.

 

[free spirit]

ok, if what you're talking about is closer to a bunch of mates going down to the park with some drums, digeridoo's, guitars and having a bit of a freeform jam in a quiet corner of the park with 50 odd likeminded mates, then it shouldn't be a problem providing you clear up after yourselves (and have the occasional 5 minute clean up while it's still going on so the area doesn't look a mess for other park users), and ideally that there are some sort of toilet facilities nearby (in the park, local pub, someone's house), and it ends before 10pm or so (or at least any drumming ends by that time).

we do this all the time in summer on an adhoc 'oh it's sunny let's round a load of people up and go down the park' kind of way, and have never had any problems other than the time we took a pa with us.

we've also done late night film showings without asking permission using a 12 volt pa & projector set up without permission with upwards of 100 people at some and had no bother.

 

[soloqi]

As stated before its still in the planning stage of how to organise the people,location and the type of theme,
So far various street performers are willing to come along and provide their services for free.
Were loking into speaking to park wardens and see if we can gt them to turn a blind eye, ive taken on what you mentioned with regards to how to approach people in a propper manner to be taken seriously and well take it one step at a time.

 

[untethered]

I understand the sentiments behind this project, but consider this.

"Public space" such as a park is maintained by the local authority. What people do there is regulated according to bye-laws issued by the local authority. Where there are problems, there is the parks service, policing and the criminal justice system to deal with them.

While all these things may have their shortcomings, the ostensible purpose of them is to ensure that the park is available for use by the broadest section of the community rather than subverted to private ends or the wishes of a minority. The system provides democratic oversight into how the community's resources are used.

The reason why you have to ask permission to use a public park to hold an event is because there are other people in the world whose needs must be considered. You may not like bureaucracy and often there is far too much of it at all levels of government. But the principle is a perfectly good one - the use of public resources is determined by the community, not just anyone who's able to turn up with a few hundred "friends".

 

[free spirit]

As stated before its still in the planning stage of how to organise the people,location and the type of theme,
So far various street performers are willing to come along and provide their services for free.
Were loking into speaking to park wardens and see if we can gt them to turn a blind eye, ive taken on what you mentioned with regards to how to approach people in a propper manner to be taken seriously and well take it one step at a time.

erm what?

either go and tell them what you're planning and ask permission, agree dates etc etc. or don't tell them and just do it, but don't tell them in advance then ask them to turn a blind eye, that's a stupid way of doing things. if the parkies were anything like any of the parkies i've known the first thing they'd do would be to come and tell the park manager in a bit of a bemused manner, which would then make the park manager wonder what you were upto, and lower your chances of being taken seriously.

go and see the park manager, you're not doing anything illegal or revolutionary, part of a park managers role is to encourage more people to use the park, so you're actually offering to help them to do their job.

 

[chymaera]

Imagine this where ou and your mates are in a part just having a laugh, how big could this crowd get before it a problem for health and safety in this p.c mad world. What if you happened yo have about 300 friends ?

Peace and love.

If you can keep it down to 250people and not make a noise after 23.30 hours you should be OK. (You still have a duty of care to all those attending though.)

 

[free spirit]

If you can keep it down to 250people and not make a noise after 23.30 hours you should be OK. (You still have a duty of care to all those attending though.)

i'd have said 250's pushing it - I'd definately view that as a public event rather than a bunch of mates.

23.30 is a bit on the late side for noise - most of the time when we've done stuff we're had a 22.00 cut off, though we have gone to 23.00, I'm sure 23.30 would be viewed as taking the piss, and likely to get you noise complaints. the other issue is that you don't really want to be going on after dark as it makes clearing up hard to do, plus kick off's tend to happen after dark IME.

 

[chymaera]

i'd have said 250's pushing it - I'd definately view that as a public event rather than a bunch of mates.

23.30 is a bit on the late side for noise - most of the time when we've done stuff we're had a 22.00 cut off, though we have gone to 23.00, I'm sure 23.30 would be viewed as taking the piss, and likely to get you noise complaints. the other issue is that you don't really want to be going on after dark as it makes clearing up hard to do, plus kick off's tend to happen after dark IME.

23.30 is a legal time limit for noise nuisance. 250 is a limit built into current licencing legislation, (It may be less due to local circumstances.)

 

[soloqi]

"untethered said"
The reason why you have to ask permission to use a public park to hold an event is because there are other people in the world whose needs must be considered. You may not like bureaucracy and often there is far too much of it at all levels of government. But the principle is a perfectly good one - the use of public resources is determined by the community, not just anyone who's able to turn up with a few hundred "friends".

You guys have have made your point about asking for permission and well there is no harm in just asking, if anythinig were simply trying to hold a little event without adhering to officialdom, in this crazy Pc world.

"free spirit"
go and see the park manager, you're not doing anything illegal or revolutionary, part of a park managers role is to encourage more people to use the park, so you're actually offering to help them to do their job.

Good point.

Regarding other people in the world "we have to consider"
First and formost modern day politics is about pleasing the majority of the people most of the time.
And the minority well they simply are not considered in the grand scheme of things.
The world changes when a small minority who the world forget, take action for themselves because the majority dont consider them as important.

Also it impossible to go around pleasing everyone, no matter what you are always going to come across peolpe who dont see your stand point.

The people that want to organise this are a community in their own right, and in this free world we have to ask permission to exersise our right to express ourselves as individuals.
we are not troublemakes or wanting to be subversive we just want to be able to have the right to regulate ourselves, as we believe we are respniosible enought.

 

[free spirit]

23.30 is a legal time limit for noise nuisance. 250 is a limit built into current licencing legislation, (It may be less due to local circumstances.)

link, source?

you could be correct, but I've never come across either figure in over a decade of event management, and there's nothing in the guidance for temporary entertainment notices to indicate you don't need a license for events under 250 people. Actually scratch that, technically you don't need a license for any event under 500 people, but you do need a temporary entertainment notice granting you permission to hold the event from the council and police, which in essence is the same as a license, just much easier and cheaper to get.

please back up your statements.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

link, source?

you could be correct, but I've never come across either figure in over a decade of event management, and there's nothing in the guidance for temporary entertainment notices to indicate you don't need a license for events under 250 people. Actually scratch that, technically you don't need a license for any event under 500 people, but you do need a temporary entertainment notice granting you permission to hold the event from the council and police, which in essence is the same as a license, just much easier and cheaper to get.

please back up your statements.

Hey ho, he's talking bollocks.

The Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 (ASBA) makes a number of amendments to the existing public order legislation extending the powers of the police to deal with:

public assemblies;
illegal raves;
aggravated trespass involving environmental protesters for example and the removal of travellers from illegally occupied land to alternative caravan sites.

Definition of public assemblies - Part 7, section 57 of the Act amends the definition of public assembly found in the Public Order Act 1984 reducing the number of persons required to constitute a public assembly from 20 to 2. This enables the police to impose conditions on public assemblies where more than two persons are gathering or expected to gather as from 20 January 2004.

Police powers in relation to raves

Section 58 amends police powers in relation to raves under section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. The minimum number of persons attending an illegal rave has been reduced from 100 to 20. The definition is not restricted to raves that take place on land in the open air but covers any gathering on any land of 20 or more people

More here

I think this is the most recent legislation but i could be completely wrong, haven't been involved lately so haven't worried about it tbh.

 

[chymaera]

link, source?

you could be correct, but I've never come across either figure in over a decade of event management, and there's nothing in the guidance for temporary entertainment notices to indicate you don't need a license for events under 250 people. Actually scratch that, technically you don't need a license for any event under 500 people, but you do need a temporary entertainment notice granting you permission to hold the event from the council and police, which in essence is the same as a license, just much easier and cheaper to get.

please back up your statements.

Check the policy of your local council it should be on their website.
In relation to "public spaces" if it is registered common "public space", it is down to the people who own the space.
Where I live "we" as in we the residents own, two "public spaces" and basically with mutual agreement, "we" can basically run any event we damned well like on it. (Alcohol licencing is not an issue as there are licenced premises alongside both "public spaces".

 

[Spandex]

if anythinig were simply trying to hold a little event without adhering to officialdom, in this crazy Pc world.

You want to hold an event in PC World?

I'd definately ask the manager...

 

[chymaera]

Just had a rummage through my folder on various aspects of recreational use of public spaces.
Suggested reading:- Inclosure Act, 1857
Commons Act, 1876
The law of property act 1925

 

[free spirit]

yeah, I was aware of the CJA stuff, but that still relates to repetitive beats and amplified music (erm I think), and I'm not quite sure if the 'carnival' being talked about involves that or not.

chymera's on about noise pollution laws I think, and the 3 acts I know of that are potentially relevant are the Noise and Statutory Nuisance Act 1993 and the Environmental Protection Act 1990, and the Noise Act 1996 (which was updated by the ASBA)

the only reference I can see to an 11.30pm cut off point for noise is in reference to the sounding of car horns, and aeroplanes.

the 2 potentially relevant sections of the law I can find that have defined time limits are define the cut off times as 9pm and 11pm respectively

6. In this group of sections, “night hours” means the period beginning with 11 p.m. and ending with the following 7 a.m.

[source The Noise Act 1996]

The Noise Act 1996 gave local authorities the option of imposing restrictions on noise emitted from dwellings between the hours of 11.00 pm and 7.00 am. The Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 amends the Noise Act 1996 and enables all local authorities in England and Wales to use the night-time provisions without first having to adopt them. If an environmental health officer is satisfied that noise exceeds the permitted level, and a warning to reduce the noise is ignored, the offender may be issued with a fixed penalty or fined. An authorised officer can also enter the dwelling to confiscate noise making equipment. (In Scotland similar action can be taken under the Anti-Social Behaviour (Noise Control) (Scotland) Regulations 2005.) An extension of these powers is expected inearly 2008, to cover night-time noise from licensed premises in England and Wales.

The use of loudspeakers in the streets is banned between 9.00 pm and 8.00 am (the police, ambulance and fire brigade are exempt). Local authorities can license use outside these hours – e.g. for entertainment

[source]

this really sums the situation up though, in as much as what is considered to be reasonable or unreasonable noise is pretty much at the discretion of the councils environmental health officer (ultimately it's upto a court to decide, but it's upto the environmental health officer to decide whether to prosecute you, so it's basically their discretion unless you really want to push things).

A nuisance is often difficult to establish but, generally speaking, if something is unreasonable to the average person, a court might decide it is a statutory nuisance.

my advice is based on a decade of real world event management, including a load of park based events in an urban setting, some licensed, some not, and 11pm is a very real cut off point in the eyes of both the police and council, and IME they would usually prefer you to finish nearer 9/10pm if it's a week night. Unless this carnival only involves people beeping car horns, 11.30pm is wrong advice. I'd actually suggest if it's unlicensed 9pm should be the cut off point to attempt to avoid problems as far as possible.

 

[chymaera]

11.30pm is wrong advice. I'd actually suggest if it's unlicensed 9pm should be the cut off point to attempt to avoid problems as far as possible.

I am going by the local district council licencing department policy document.
This obviously can vary from authority to authority.
(Most of the events I go to stop the bands at 23.30.)

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Just had a rummage through my folder on various aspects of recreational use of public spaces.
Suggested reading:- Inclosure Act, 1857
Commons Act, 1876
The law of property act 1925

Except that all of that is overshadowed by the Public Order Act 1986, which in turn has been amended by the ASBA 2003 i referred to earlier on:

POA c.14.—( 1) If the senior police officer, having regard to the time conditions or place at which and the circumstances in which any public assembly is being held or is intended to be held, reasonably believes that:

(a) it may result in serious public disorder, serious damage to property or serious disruption to the life of the community, or
(b) the purpose of the persons organising it is the intimidation of others with a view to compelling them not to do an act they have a right to do, or to do an act they have a right not to do,

he may give directions imposing on the persons organising or taking part in the assembly such conditions as to the place at which the assembly may be (or continue to be) held, its maximum duration, or the maximum number of persons who may constitute it, as appear to him necessary to prevent such disorder, damage, disruption or intimidation.

The ASBA reduced the maximum number from 20 down to 2. If you hold a gathering in a public place like a park and the cops decide that sec.(a) applies, you're basically fucked as far as I'm aware. Which is why permission being sought is a wise move. Of course, you can always get away with gatherings and so on with musicians and entertainment and so on, it goes on next to Pub on the Park in Hackney every summer.

However, if you're "gathering" was getting rowdy or excessively large to the point that other members of the public complained about it, and the cops could actually be bothered to show up and do something, its a difficult one to get off afaik. We did some parties on the marshes and used squatters rights to circumvent this, but that was because it was enclosed private land.

 

[free spirit]

Check the policy of your local council it should be on their website.

sorry chymera, that doesn't cut it, I know the wording of my local council licensing documents inside out and back to front, and have just double checked them and can find no reference either to a defined limit of events upto 250 people not needing a license (unless you're referring to events needing a temporary ents notice instead of a license, in which case the upper limit is 500 not 250), or and 11.30pm curfew for noise (other than car horns and aeroplanes).

please provide a link to back up your statement, or retract it, as the OP could take your statement at face value, and end up in court because of it.

 

[chymaera]

However, if you're "gathering" was getting rowdy or excessively large to the point that other members of the public complained about it, and the cops could actually be bothered to show up and do something, its a difficult one to get off afaik. We did some parties on the marshes and used squatters rights to circumvent this, but that was because it was enclosed private land.

The point I am trying to make is in some cases "members of the public" are the ones who "own" the land. If it is "their" event, there won't be any complaints.
If people try and make a bloody nuisance over three nights with a 28 speaker sound system that is very much a different issue to using commonly owned land for an civilised family event.

 

[free spirit]

I am going by the local district council licencing department policy document.
This obviously can vary from authority to authority.
(Most of the events I go to stop the bands at 23.30.)

so you're basing your advice on the precedent of licensed events? yet you stated quite clearly that

23.30 is a legal time limit for noise nuisance.

a council can license an event to run for as late as it likes, depending on a wide variety of factors including the discretion of the council licensing and noise officers. this does not set a precedent for what is acceptable in locations within the same council district, never mind across the country, and particularly not when the OP is talking about running an unlicensed event.

eta the bit where you state that 'This obviously can vary from authority to authority' is correct, and well worth remembering next time you're coming out with blanket statements.