Making calls and texting when driving: discussion

[weltweit]

Well exactly. I put it to every safety campaigner out there that having two children in the back of your car is, unless they're slept/drugged throughout the journey, every bit as distracting and dangerous (if not a lot more actually) than talking on a hands-free phone.

I would agree with that.

There was a study of drivers with kids in the back, how much time their eyes were off the road, it was interesting, one mum was always looking into the back and her eyes were hardly on the road ahead.

 

[haZe36]

There are plenty of distractions for drivers, but for me texting is an unacceptable level of risk.

Should carry a short ban, perhaps a month or so...

 

[editor]

And if it is implied that the conversation itself is distracting to unacceptable levels, then I'd suggest drivers are banned from carrying passengers in cars unless they observe absolute silence throughout the journey.

There's actually a huge difference.You're unlikely to have, say, your boss yelling at you from the back seat of your car and crucially, they've no idea of what's going on in your immediate surroundings.

A passenger talking to you would see what's going on around you and react (or shut the fuck up) accordingly if a dangerous situation arose.

But don't take my word for it:

# Motorists who use cellphones while driving are four times as likely to get into crashes serious enough to injure themselves, according to a study of drivers in Perth, Australia, conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The results, published in July 2005, suggest that banning hand-held phone use will not necessarily improve safety if drivers simply switch to hand-free phones. The study found that injury crash risk didn't vary with type of phone.

# Many studies have shown that using hand-held cellphones while driving can constitute a hazardous distraction. However, the theory that hands-free sets are safer has been challenged by the findings of several studies. A study from researchers at the University of Utah, published in the summer 2006 issue of Human Factors, the quarterly journal of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society, concludes that talking on a cellphone while driving is as dangerous as driving drunk, even if the phone is a hands-free model. An earlier study by researchers at the university found that motorists who talked on hands-free cellphones were 18 percent slower in braking and took 17 percent longer to regain the speed they lost when they braked.

http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/cellphones/

 

[T & P]

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Stressful conversations can be had on or off the car. In fact (I'll try to dig up a link) cars have been found to be stressful environments for couples with issues to be in, as they find themselves having arguments rather often- all to do with being in a confined space for a period of time without being able to get out of it.

And we have all been children, and we all know what children can be like.

Maybe instead of the boss yelling at you through the hands-free, you're having a pleasant conversation with your loved one, a friend or relative.

Those studies are talking nonsense IMO. I might accept an increased risk when a call is first made (and to a lesser degree received) but the act of having a conversation through speakers and a microphone cannot be, in a million years, any more distracting than having a conversation with your spouse in the car- and would be certainly a lot less distracting than having a couple of kids in the back laughing and playing and shouting.

 

[Spymaster]

hope you never kill a cyclist you selfish twerp I text simple messages when I'm cycling in town, sometimes have to grip the phone with my teeth when I negotiate jumping a red though

So you send text messages while cycling and the idiot who sends them whilst driving is more selfish and twerplike than you ..... how exactly?

Stroll on. Fucking cyclists.

 

[Boycey]

Roll on. Fucking cyclists.

fixed

 

[T & P]

Actually on the subject of cyclists, I wonder how cycling while listenting to music on headphones compares in the danger scales against a driver having a hands-free conversation...

 

[hovis]

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Stressful conversations can be had on or off the car. In fact (I'll try to dig up a link) cars have been found to be stressful environments for couples with issues to be in, as they find themselves having arguments rather often- all to do with being in a confined space for a period of time without being able to get out of it.

And we have all been children, and we all know what children can be like.

Maybe instead of the boss yelling at you through the hands-free, you're having a pleasant conversation with your loved one, a friend or relative.

Those studies are talking nonsense IMO. I might accept an increased risk when a call is first made (and to a lesser degree received) but the act of having a conversation through speakers and a microphone cannot be, in a million years, any more distracting than having a conversation with your spouse in the car- and would be certainly a lot less distracting than having a couple of kids in the back laughing and playing and shouting.

Hmm. But a lot of people talking on mobiles can't even seem to negotiate walking straight down the pavement in a lot of cases!

 

[editor]

Actually on the subject of cyclists, I wonder how cycling while listenting to music on headphones compares in the danger scales against a driver having a hands-free conversation...

Gotta love this hopeless strawman being constructed here.

Here's a driver who killed someone as a result of a hands-free conversation. Be sure to post up some examples of cyclists who have killed people as a result of listening to music.

A lorry driver who caused a fatal accident during a hands-free mobile phone call was jailed for four-and-a-half years yesterday.

Road safety groups responded by calling for a blanket ban on phone calls at the wheel.

Haulier Mervyn Richmond, 49, had been talking to his mother for 23 minutes using the Bluetooth connection in his cab.

Lincoln Crown Court heard he concentrated on the conversation to the point of being 'oblivious to all around him' and failed to spot a line of stationary traffic on the straight dual carriageway ahead.

Richmond's Scania HGV ran into the back of a Transit van without braking – killing its passenger, father-of-two Michael Buston in March last year.

Last night, after a jury took an hour to convict him of causing death by dangerous driving, safety experts called for the ban on handheld mobile phones at the wheel to be extended to hands-free calls.

Roger Vincent, of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, said: 'When you are using any mobile while driving you are four times more likely to have an accident.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...onvicted-causing-death-dangerous-driving.html

 

[Boycey]

Actually on the subject of cyclists, I wonder how cycling while listenting to music on headphones compares in the danger scales against a driver having a hands-free conversation...

and how music over a stereo in a car compares to headphones...

i think there's only one way to settle this. british bulldog, cyclists v motorists, brockwell park. bring an oyster card if you want to umpire.

 

[editor]

Those studies are talking nonsense IMO.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

There proberbly have been crashes while drivers have stressful conversations with passengers. Just because that source is hard to stop doesn't mean we should not prevent the crashes which take place while on a mobile phone.

 

[T & P]

Gotta love this hopeless strawman being constructed here.

Here's a driver who killed someone as a result of a hands-free conversation. Be sure to post up some examples of cyclists who have killed people as a result of listening to music.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...onvicted-causing-death-dangerous-driving.html

If one man becoming obsessed with a phone conversation to the point of losing concentration is basis for introducing a blanket ban on hands-free phone, then I can assure you that carrying wife and kids in the car- and indeed any passenger at all- would have been banned a long time ago.

And I don't need to even try to dig any story to know that someone, somewhere, has had a serious accident at some point as a result to being distracted by their passengers in the car.

I certainly wouldn't bet against nobody ever having crashed while changing the radio station.

When you show me a scientific study and proves and explains why having a conversation through speakers and a microphone should be any more distracting than having a conversation with someone in your car, I'll consider agreeing to banning hands-free. Until then forgive me for being extremely sceptical about it. I cannot think of any scientific or logical reason why the two conversations should be any different. Can you really?

As a matter of fact, given how some people feel compelled to look at those they're having a conversation with, I have no doubt whatsoever that there have been accidents caused by the driver looking at his front seat passenger while talking to/arguing with them and losing concentration. Let's ban front seat passengers as well.

Given the number of serious accidents that occur every year, it is fair to say there has been at least one occurrence of just about everything you can think of, from changing stations to talking to passengers to a wasp entering the vehicle to a hot drink spilling. Should we use all and any incidents, no matter how uncommon, to ban such activities whilst driving?

Incidentally, there is no telling how many cyclists have not only killed themselves but injured or killed pedestrians or other cyclists and bikers through not being able to hear fuck all while riding, which is, regardless of what some might claim, and extremely important part of road awareness.

 

[berniedicters]

I think there is a rank of distracting things you can do with a phone in a car ..

1) the most distracting is texting ..

2) less distracting but still dangerous talking on a handset

3) the least distracting, talking on a proper hands free set.

I used a hands free set for years and consider them no worse than having a conversation with someone in the back of the car. Sure they can be distracting but it is possible to use them with an acceptable level of risk.

I think this is the core of it. Anything we do while we're driving is a potential distraction. But, short of enclosing the driver's cockpit in a soundproofed compartment, we can't really legislate for every distraction that might occur. And, after all, some responsibility for managing the distractions has to fall to the driver.

I think the suggestion of the OP that texting be somehow treated differently from phoning is all very well, but then we're starting to create an ever more fine-grained scale of offences, and I can't see how that helps very much. Surely the message is "don't do other stuff while you are driving, because it's not safe. Here are some examples of other stuff we WILL do you for if we catch you, and if you crash and you are found to have been doing such sorts of other stuff, we will hold you contributorily liable for the crash."

If we try and nail down the activities too tightly, we'll create loopholes that will enable people to say "well, nobody said it was illegal to change my baby's nappy while I was driving along...". Far better we just say "concentrate on driving. Or else."? Then deal with it on a case-by-case basis when someone's caught driving negligently or has a crash.

 

[Spymaster]

Be sure to post up some examples of cyclists who have killed people as a result of listening to music.

There are plenty of examples which suggest that cycling while listening to music is a piss-poor idea:

Further Evidence that Cycling and iPod Use Don't Mix

I love my iPod, but I don't ride my bike while listening to my iPod, and I strongly discourage combining iPod use with cycling under any circumstances. An article in today's The London Free Press up in London, Ontario ought to be further proof of the danger of cycling with your headphones on:

A 15-year-old cyclist who died of head injuries after colliding with a tractor-trailer in Chatham-Kent Saturday was wearing an iPod and headphones but no helmet, police said yesterday...

"Anytime anybody is wearing any type of earphones or ear protection and their hearing is limited, it could present a hazardous situation," Constable Doug Gutteridge said.

Kevin Houston, the 15-year old cyclist, was a multisport athlete who was in Grade 11 at a secondary school in Chatham, Ontario, a small city in Southern Ontario between Toronto and Detroit. May he rest in peace.

http://www.operationgadget.com/2006/09/further_evidence_that_cycling.html

Young people have been warned of the dangers of MP3 players after a teenage girl was killed by a car while listening to her iPod.

Abigail Haythorne, 17, died of severe head injuries after she cycled into the path of an oncoming car, apparently without noticing it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...age-cyclist-wearing-iPod-killed-car-hear.html

On Monday, a coroner's court in London heard the beginning of an inquest into the death of Patricia McMillan. The 32-year-old law student was cycling to work when she was hit by a lorry, dragged under its wheels and killed. She was wearing an iPod at the time,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/feb/15/fitness

Police have warned that cyclists should never listen to an iPod while riding unless they have a death wish.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ipod--the-risks/2006/02/15/1139890771660.html

Thankfully these people have only killed themselves so far but the trauma that they've caused to the drivers that hit them and of course their families must be life changing.

An incredibly selfish and stupid thing to do.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Just because there was an ipod involved does not establish causation. You can even make a case for ipods decreasing cycling deaths, they make cycling more pleasant thus more do it, thus there are more on the roads which leads to a lower rate of accidents.

 

[Spymaster]

Just because there was an ipod involved does not establish causation.

The same could be said of hands free driving related deaths. The only difference is that the driver that Ed linked to above was found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving, and the deaths caused by the cyclists were their own, hence no prosecution and establishment of causation.

A quick Google shows that there's shit-loads of evidence against cycling whilst listening to music.

You can even make a case for ipods decreasing cycling deaths, they make cycling more pleasant thus more do it, thus there are more on the roads which leads to a lower rate of accidents.

Well yes you could make that argument, but you'd be fucking stupid to do so given the number of iPod related deaths of cyclists.

 

[editor]

There are plenty of examples which suggest that cycling while listening to music is a piss-poor idea:

Sure, but the only people they kill is themselves, unlike texting and hands-free motorists who put everybody's else's lives at risk with their idiotic antics.

 

[editor]

If one man becoming obsessed with a phone conversation to the point of losing concentration is basis for introducing a blanket ban on hands-free phone, then I can assure you that carrying wife and kids in the car- and indeed any passenger at all- would have been banned a long time ago.

Could you explain your grounds for ignoring the findings of all the research on this topic so far please?

Incidentally, there is no telling how many cyclists have not only killed themselves but injured or killed pedestrians or other cyclists and bikers through not being able to hear fuck all while riding, which is, regardless of what some might claim, and extremely important part of road awareness.

I've still no idea what cyclists listening to music has to do with this debate. It's irrelevant, but if you're going to keep banging on about it, at least produce some figures for cyclists killing pedestrians and other road users as a direct consequence of listening to music as they pedal along.

 

[Spymaster]

Sure, but the only people they kill is themselves,

I agree with you on texting drivers but 'only killing themselves' doesn't make the act of cycling dangerously any less selfish does it? As I mentioned, there's the damage caused to the drivers that hit them and their families, the families of the cyclists themselves etc.

It's not as if the cyclists are the only victims.

 

[Roadkill]

Just because there was an ipod involved does not establish causation. You can even make a case for ipods decreasing cycling deaths, they make cycling more pleasant thus more do it, thus there are more on the roads which leads to a lower rate of accidents.

I'd say that wearing headphones whilst in charge of any road vehicle is a pretty daft thing to do, since you perceive hazards almost as much by hearing as by sight, especially those behind you.

Not that that detracts from the main thrust of the thread, which is that texting whilst driving is demonstrably dangerous. I'm not sure I agree it should carry a harsher penalty than holding a phone conversation, purely because it's not always easy to distinguish, or more to the point to prove, that someone was texting rather than making a call, but it's certainly right that it was banned.

 

[T & P]

Could you explain your grounds for ignoring the findings of all the research on this topic so far please?

I have seen no evidence or even explanation of how having a conversation through speakers and microphone can be more distracting than having a conversation with someone in the car.

As I said before I am not talking about making a call on your mobile while driving- I know that must be distracting. I am referring to the act of having a conversation with another person whilst driving. I see nothing in that report that proves or suggests why having a conversation through speakers is in any way more distracting than having a conversation with someone in the seat next to you.

With regard to the driver who killed some people as a result of his conversation, I am saying that this is the most certainly the exception not the norm, and that if we are to regulate driving based on single cases then just about everything and everyone apart from the driver should be banned from being near the driver, lest it causes them a distraction. The suggestion, for instance, that the deeply absorbing conversation with the driver's mother would have been less distracting had she been in the vehicle with him is nothing short of ridiculous.

I've still no idea what cyclists listening to music has to do with this debate. It's irrelevant, but if you're going to keep banging on about it, at least produce some figures for cyclists killing pedestrians and other road users as a direct consequence of listening to music as they pedal along.

I think Spymaster has done that above. Though to be fair this is perhaps a separate issue and we should not be trying to justify the behaviour of one group of road users based on the actions of another.

 

[editor]

I have seen no evidence or even explanation of how having a conversation through speakers and microphone can be more distracting than having a conversation with someone in the car.

Using a mobile phone introduces an extra risk and an unnecessary one. Now here's your evidence.

The scientific literature is mixed on the dangers of talking on a cell phone versus those of talking with a passenger. The common conception is that passengers are able to better regulate conversation based on the perceived level of danger, therefore the risk is negligible. A study by a University of South Carolina psychology researcher featured in the journal, Experimental Psychology, found that planning to speak and speaking put far more demands on the brain’s resources than listening. Measurement of attention levels showed that subjects were four times more distracted while preparing to speak or speaking than when they were listening.

The Accident Research Unit at the University of Nottingham found that the number of utterances was usually higher for mobile calls when compared to blindfolded and non-blindfolded passengers across various driving conditions. The number of questions asked averaged slightly higher for mobile phone conversations, although results were not constant across road types and largely influenced by a large number of questions on the urban roads.

A 2004 University of Utah simulation study that compared passenger and cell-phone conversations concluded that the driver performs better when conversing with a passenger because the traffic and driving task become part of the conversation. Drivers holding conversations on cell phones were four times more likely to miss the highway exit than those with passengers, and drivers conversing with passengers showed no statistically significant difference from lone drivers in the simulator.

A study led by Andrew Parkes at the Transport Research Laboratory, also with a driving simulator, concluded that hands-free phone conversations impair driving performance more than other common in-vehicle distractions such as passenger conversations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile...#As_compared_to_conversation_with_a_passenger

 

[T & P]

I'd say that wearing headphones whilst in charge of any road vehicle is a pretty daft thing to do, since you perceive hazards almost as much by hearing as by sight, especially those behind you.

Not that that detracts from the main thrust of the thread, which is that texting whilst driving is demonstrably dangerous. I'm not sure I agree it should carry a harsher penalty than holding a phone conversation, purely because it's not always easy to distinguish, or more to the point to prove, that someone was texting rather than making a call, but it's certainly right that it was banned.

Another case one or two years ago- extensively discussed here at the time- about a driver fined for texting whilst the car was stationary at a red lights comes to mind.

Some people agreed with the fine because, they argued, the driver was 'in charge of the vehicle' and apparently no driver can be trusted to put the phone down when the light turns green. Which is ludicrous IMO. We might as well fine drivers for reaching for a tissue, or pack of chewing gum while stopped at the lights, since we don't know whether they'll have the restrain to return both their hands and full attention to the task of driving once the traffic starts moving again.

 

[editor]

Another case one or two years ago- extensively discussed here at the time- about a driver fined for texting whilst the car was stationary at a red lights comes to mind.

If you want to start sending off texts, pull over. Simple.

 

[T & P]

Using a mobile phone introduces an extra risk and an unnecessary one. Now here's your evidence.

Well I never...

 

[Spymaster]

I have seen no evidence or even explanation of how having a conversation through speakers and microphone can be more distracting than having a conversation with someone in the car.

I have to say I'd like to see the research, particularly the evidence that backs up statements such as this:

Roger Vincent, of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, said: 'When you are using any mobile while driving you are four times more likely to have an accident.'

Why not 5 or 6 times? What's the test used to determine the coefficient of accidents to hands-free phone use? Smells a bit bullshitty doesn't it?

It's certainly counter-intuitive that having a hands-free conversation is 4 times more likely to lead to an accident than having a conversation with a passenger, so I can understand one questioning the veracity of these soundbites.

That said, I'm prepared to keep an open mind, and texting while driving is very obviously a cunts game, imo.

 

[weltweit]

I have my own experience.

When I was first a sales person we had no hands free kits so would occasionally make calls on a handheld phone. None of us liked this and we could feel that it was dangerous. Shortly afterwards hands free kits became available at a reasonable price, the type where you plug your phone in and there is a microphone near your head and a speaker usually in the passenger footwell.

We (I) started using the hands free kit and found it was a lot safer than talking on a handset. I probably used the hands free kit for 10 years, never had an accident, I still used to pull over when making an important outgoing call because the phone call was likely to take up a lot of concentration. When taking calls when driving if the call became too complex I would defer it and call them back when I found a suitable place to stop.

Its common sense with a hands free phone.

Its also common sense that texting while driving is very dangerous.

 

[editor]

I have to say I'd like to see the research, particularly the evidence that backs up statements such as this:



Why not 5 or 6 times? What's the test used to determine the coefficient of accidents to hands-free phone use? Smells a bit bullshitty doesn't it?

"Bullshitty" in the sense that you personally don't like their findings?

The research was carried out by the University of Sydney and published in the British Medical Journal. Several other studies came up with a similar risk. I've posted up several articles linking to these and can't be arsed to do it anymore.

 

[Spymaster]

"Bullshitty" in the sense that you personally don't like their findings?

The research was carried out by the University of Sydney and published in the British Medical Journal. Several other studies came up with a similar risk. I've posted up several articles linking to these and can't be arsed to do it anymore.

I'd not noticed that post of yours when I replied to T&P. As I said it seemed counter-intuitive but it looks like the research supports old Roger's statement.

I was clearly right to remain open-minded.