Mahmoud Darwish - Rest in Peace

[Udo Erasmus]

I was well aware that Amos Oz is regarded as a liberal and peacnik in Israel, personally I think he is a hypocrite and a liberal warmonger. ie the support of fellow bleeding heart liberals like Grossman for the Lebanon War, and Oz's statement after the Palestinians rejected the Oslo Frauds, that "the doves need to re-examine their perches"

I can't say that I am an expert on Israeli poetry, and can only read it in translation but I have read some Chaim Bialik and Yehuda Amichai and can respect their work despite their nationalism.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: "Israel and the State of Israel are 2 different things.": I am sure many know about your hobby, English semantics but you are really outdoing yourself with that gem. Whatever.

"Sheba'a and Golan are not analagous.": Sure they are. Both were gained in the same conflict (as if it ever ended but let us just say same conflict and same timeframe to avoid your "correction").

"Panda's grandparents saw themselves as Ukranian Nationalists first, Jews second.": I do not wish to be rude but I do have to say what I feel: Any Jew from that area who ever thought such a thing was ignorant above all else. Ukranian? What a joke. Sure, they COULD have though it but what do actual Ukranians think? I am sure you do not need me to remind you of the many, many pogroms that began there.

"Panda is not Assimilationist, just normal.": OK, if you say so. Not in my book, nor in many other Jews but to each their own. As I said, it is your right, your choice, but it does not change the fact that myself and many other Jews fight for your right to say otherwise.

"Definition of semantics.": Again, if you say so. Semantics is quite the thing with you. Everyone needs a hobby I suppose. I love chemistry, you love word games. To each their own.

"So Rachamim says, when he tells Panda that either in his or his childrens' lifetimes they will suffer for being Jews in a foreign land.": That is history. History is a wheel. Tell me of a 20 year period anywhere in the world outside of Israel, where Jews have not died for being Jews.

"Israel can only guarantee reistance to anti-Jewish acts, but so could a Jew anywhere in the world.": Safety in numbers. Safety in power. The only place you will find either is Israel, and there you find BOTH.

 

[rachamim18]

Udo: Oz is not a hypocrite at all. He just does not fit your political mold. He is for the Barrier, but wishes it was on the Greenline. He was for the 2006 War, but abhorred its mishandling by the powers that be. He makes alot of sense although I am certainly far right of him.

As for Bialik and Amichai, I admire both. Hebrew is an extremely beautiful language, but then all Semitic languages are. Arabic poetry is breathtakingly beuatiful in the hands of an able poet. Darwish though was far from that. To each their own though.

 

[nino_savatte]

Still crapping on about "semantics"...even though you continue to misuse the word? For someone who describes themselves as "educated", you really are pretty thick.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "Israel and the State of Israel are 2 different things.": I am sure many know about your hobby, English semantics but you are really outdoing yourself with that gem. Whatever.

"Sheba'a and Golan are not analagous.": Sure they are. Both were gained in the same conflict (as if it ever ended but let us just say same conflict and same timeframe to avoid your "correction").

"Panda's grandparents saw themselves as Ukranian Nationalists first, Jews second.": I do not wish to be rude but I do have to say what I feel: Any Jew from that area who ever thought such a thing was ignorant above all else. Ukranian? What a joke. Sure, they COULD have though it but what do actual Ukranians think? I am sure you do not need me to remind you of the many, many pogroms that began there.

"Panda is not Assimilationist, just normal.": OK, if you say so. Not in my book, nor in many other Jews but to each their own. As I said, it is your right, your choice, but it does not change the fact that myself and many other Jews fight for your right to say otherwise.

"Definition of semantics.": Again, if you say so. Semantics is quite the thing with you. Everyone needs a hobby I suppose. I love chemistry, you love word games. To each their own.

"So Rachamim says, when he tells Panda that either in his or his childrens' lifetimes they will suffer for being Jews in a foreign land.": That is history. History is a wheel. Tell me of a 20 year period anywhere in the world outside of Israel, where Jews have not died for being Jews.

"Israel can only guarantee reistance to anti-Jewish acts, but so could a Jew anywhere in the world.": Safety in numbers. Safety in power. The only place you will find either is Israel, and there you find BOTH.

What a load of wank.

You've misrepresented so much of what I said it's nigh on unbelievable coming from anyone except you.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda and Nino (I will resist the temptation): YAWN.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda and Nino (I will resist the temptation): YAWN.

Far easier for you to yawn than to address the fact that you misrepresent virtually everyone you paraphrase, isn't it?

Thank G-d that most people aren't as fundamentally dishonest as you are, Rachamim, even to yourself.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda...or is it Nino? Panda, Nino, all the same: Thank you for the tip. Now back to the script.

 

[nino_savatte]

Now back to the script.

Israel is the best
Israel is the longest surviving nation on the planet
[My homogenised view of] Jewish culture is superior to all others
Anyone who criticises Israel and Zionism is an anti-Semite
The Palestinian people don't exist (because I say so)
The only valid history is that of Israel

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda...or is it Nino? Panda, Nino, all the same: Thank you for the tip. Now back to the script.

Oh look, Rachamim is so bereft of anything worthwhile to say that he's fallen back on his old insinuation that Nino and I are the same person.

Ah well, little things please little minds, Rachamim, so you must be ecstatic.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

nino and VP are not the same person. Unless that person has extremely long arms and two computers in different parts of the country. Or can run very quickly.

 

[ViolentPanda]

nino and VP are not the same person. Unless that person has extremely long arms and two computers in different parts of the country. Or can run very quickly.

Run?
I wish!

I can manage a fast "crip shuffle" with my walking sticks, or about 7mph in a wheelchair (with a following wind), but that's about it!

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You could, however, have arms like Mr Tickle.

 

[rachamim18]

Fridge: It was tongue in cheek, as in "why should I bother responding to one's insults when the second's are right down the pike." Remindws me alot of 2 wrestling chaps from the late 1970s and rearly 80s, a tag-team duo called "The Wild Samoans."

Now let us take time to analyse them as much as one possible could given the circumstances: Nino. Young, in university IF that, a homebuddy, does not like crowds, rarely dates and possibly even seriously questioning his sexuality.

Above average intelligence, innundated with the fashionable British blight of over compensation for the mega "Liberal White Guilt" of the pseudo-left. Anything even loosely construed as "minority" amd "downtrodden" shall be trampeled and to hell with concention and historical accuracity,


Defencive to the point of pathological and feels his vile insults are a protective mechansim with which to keep his whole tiny Dungeons and Drgaons universe nicely portioned and separate from the ugliness seeen nightly on his caregiver's telly (after shes had a nip or too too much thanks to her mischevious charge).


Seeing the world strictly in "black and white," Nino cannot even begin to uinderstand the word pragmatism, only that IF one has the audacity to support SOME of Israel's positions, that person MUST be a "Deep Penetration Agent (will not even begin to discuss the double entendre with that ONE!).

"Israel is the best..." FOR JEWS.

"Israel is the longest surviving nation on the planet.": Utter nonsense and word play. Israel is HOME to the lonest surviving PEOPLE on the Planet.

"Rachamim's HOMOGONISED view on Judaisim is best on the planet.": Judaisim is a religion. Faith is a personal issue. Personally, I could not care less if you woship that white paste between your little toes. I am concerned with the PRESERVATION OF MY VERY EXTICT CULTURE. Just a tad bit of difference there lovey, one that has sadly completely escaped you.

"Anyone who dares to criticse Israel OR Zionism is a Jew Hater.": Nonsnense to the 50th Power. Criticism is an honest assesment, not even neccessarily negative. Blanket Parties as we used to call them in the army though are an altogether different phenomenon. Tossing anything you can remotely imagine into a bonfire named Israel is atrocious and intellectually dishonest as are the people taking part in it.

Israel is the least homogenised of any Mid-East Nations and ALL ISraeli CITIZENS have full and equal rights, with Israeli-Arabs actually holding several EXTRA of these rights.

"The 'Palestinian People' do not exist simply because Rachamim says so!": NO, they do NOT ewxist because they have never existed and that Nino is a fact. Who was their first leader? Care to tell us about their last borders? Unlike Jews who existed sans national framwork due to a highly codified and cohesive culture, local Arabs either called themselves Northern Egyptians or Southern Syrians depending on their particualr locale.

Prior to 1948, ALL peopole born in this part of the British Mandate were known as "PAlestinians" are as my dad, his dad, his mum, and countless uncles, aunties, and cousins, etc. In 48 when Israel was REintroduced to the Introduced to the world stage, Arabs scrambled for some kind of brandname and by 53 anyway seemed ot have settled on one that lended an air of cultural connection but that only flew with the extremely ignorant (i.e. most of the world),

They were ALSO given Trans-Jordan (later shortened to Jordan) but that is yet another sordid tale.

"The only valid history is that of Israel.": OK, since I have taken the time and patience to answer each and everyone of your "points," bless and educate us with a true "Palestinian" history. Indulge us Nino.

 

[DexterTCN]

This thread was about the passing of a poet.

Then a fucking troll came along and it's all been about the troll since then.

 

[rachamim18]

Professor Panda: No my esteemed nemesis, simply observing you both share the very true propensisty for riding one's coc& strap to a very hgh degree, but to each their own. Far be it from me, the Zionist Opiate Addled Loser to try and ever challenge anything said to created by you two peas in a pod.


On a serious note, did not know that you were at all physically challenged. Will not even begin to add that to my repotrois of popanalysation but it does make for some good food for thought.

 

[DexterTCN]

First comment about him in Wiki...

Darwish is the Essential Breath of the Palestinian people, the eloquent witness of exile and belonging...

 

[rachamim18]

Dexter: I will again remind you about Wiki. The comment you are enthralled with, by a felow Arab poet is merely a quote about the late Dawrish, not a professional or academic critique. You like rock, I like trance, or whatever. It comes down to personal tastes. Particularly I happen to agree with the lot of his critics who deem nothing new or innovating and merely parroting those who actually immersed themselves within the struggle as he asat in an Israeli condo, with an Israeli dirver, Israeli bodyguards, and an Israeli paychek, all the time intoning how it is impossible to think of him as anti-Jewish since his first conquest was a Jewish girl. Disgusting to say the last and if the poetry half lived up to its name it might be bearable,,,sadly, it is not.

I went to Wiki to prove apoint you but unfortunatley they are having a tune-up and actual reediting is offline. Anyone can say anythiong about anyone. Darwish is a chimp, Darwish is
G-D, it means all and nothing. Judge him by his body of work and the xontext in which he created it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fridge: It was tongue in cheek, as in "why should I bother responding to one's insults when the second's are right down the pike." Remindws me alot of 2 wrestling chaps from the late 1970s and rearly 80s, a tag-team duo called "The Wild Samoans."

Yeah, so "tongue in cheek" that you've made the claim previously. Several times.

Now let us take time to analyse them as much as one possible could given the circumstances: Nino. Young, in university IF that, a homebuddy, does not like crowds, rarely dates and possibly even seriously questioning his sexuality.

So far, so laughably inaccurate.

Above average intelligence, innundated with the fashionable British blight of over compensation for the mega "Liberal White Guilt" of the pseudo-left.

"Liberal white guilt"?
Oh dear, that really is laughable!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Professor Panda: No my esteemed nemesis, simply observing you both share the very true propensisty for riding one's coc& strap to a very hgh degree, but to each their own.

Ah, homosexual innuendo. How very mature of you.

Far be it from me, the Zionist Opiate Addled Loser to try and ever challenge anything said to created by you two peas in a pod.

To you, anyone who opposes your opinions are alike, in that you're happy to paint them as somehow all being tarred with the same political brush.

On a serious note, did not know that you were at all physically challenged. Will not even begin to add that to my repotrois of popanalysation but it does make for some good food for thought.

You did know, Rachamim (given that I explained on a thread several years ago after I mentioned taking morphine sulphate and you asked why), you've merely forgotten.
As for you adding it to your "pop analysis", go ahead. Given how wrong you usually are, it should be amusing to see you add "bitter cripple" to your list of insinuations and snide remarks.

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: "Liberal white guilt" then does NOT exist?

"Homosexual innuendo.": Nope, case of cultural miscommunication. In America, particularly in the NYC area, phrases such as "riding my coc%," and riding my "jock" mean that a person is not giving you space, stalking you, or conversely emulating you. It is not sexual in nature.

"Anyone opposing Rachamim's political opinions...": Actually I am quite able to get along withanyone not espousing terrorism or the right to it. I personally have friends that run the gamut from communists (including guerillas but given my Residency Status I must not discuss THAT) to Libretarians and such. While I might not have friends within the Birch Society or the LaRouche organisation I am able to intelligently exchange opinions with them and do not feel overly sensitive.

If anyone opposes my views, do so with civility and you will find a detailed response and interaction. Problem though, is that most here simply toss insults of the most vile nature.

"Physically challenged.": I pride myself on a very, very good memory but to be quite honest I have no memeory of your discussing with me ever taking morphine or having a physical problem. Do you truly imagine me so vile as to berate you or anyone else for a disability? Indeed, if so you are a very poor judge of character although admittedly it is difficult to judge anyone honestly in cyberspace. Personality is generally not conveyed in any accurate way.

I became an opiate addict because of physical injuries so while I was not disabled , I was disfigured so to speak. I imagine I am average looking but my entire jaw is full of micro fractures and missing teeth thanks to a bullet shard and the morphine I was given for it hooked me (although the real addiction began after my second injury almost a year later). If anything I could probably relate to you more than revile you.

Nino: Still waiting for your "Palestinian History" lesson, anytime you are ready buddy.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Still waiting for your "Palestinian History" lesson, anytime you are ready buddy.

That will be the Palestinian history that you deny exists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "Liberal white guilt" then does NOT exist?

Read again, and this time actually attempt to understand what I wrote.
Here's a hint. Nino wouldn't feel "liberal white guilt" because....". Can you guess?

"Homosexual innuendo.": Nope, case of cultural miscommunication. In America, particularly in the NYC area, phrases such as "riding my coc%," and riding my "jock" mean that a person is not giving you space, stalking you, or conversely emulating you. It is not sexual in nature.

I don't live in NYC, you supposedly don't live in NYC. Why use NYC slang?

"Anyone opposing Rachamim's political opinions...": Actually I am quite able to get along withanyone not espousing terrorism or the right to it. I personally have friends that run the gamut from communists (including guerillas but given my Residency Status I must not discuss THAT) to Libretarians and such. While I might not have friends within the Birch Society or the LaRouche organisation I am able to intelligently exchange opinions with them and do not feel overly sensitive.

Ah, more of Rachamim's misrepresentations.
I didn't mention your "political opinions", I mentioned your opinions per se, and that anyone who disagreed with them got tarred by you with "the same political brush", i.e. that you infer that anyone who disagrees with you must, ipso facto share a common set of beliefs.

If anyone opposes my views, do so with civility and you will find a detailed response and interaction. Problem though, is that most here simply toss insults of the most vile nature.

"Physically challenged.": I pride myself on a very, very good memory but to be quite honest I have no memeory of your discussing with me ever taking morphine or having a physical problem. Do you truly imagine me so vile as to berate you or anyone else for a disability? Indeed, if so you are a very poor judge of character although admittedly it is difficult to judge anyone honestly in cyberspace. Personality is generally not conveyed in any accurate way.

You pride yourself incorrectly, then.
This is hardly the first time that you've had no memory of something we've previously discussed, and I somehow doubt that this will be your last (rather convenient) attack of amnesia.

I became an opiate addict because of physical injuries so while I was not disabled , I was disfigured so to speak. I imagine I am average looking but my entire jaw is full of micro fractures and missing teeth thanks to a bullet shard and the morphine I was given for it hooked me (although the real addiction began after my second injury almost a year later). If anything I could probably relate to you more than revile you.

I'll bear that in mind.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Correct, "Palestine" has never existed. "Palestinians" are simply Arabs with a variety of backgrounds, most of whom have great grandparents from other nations. They do now enjoy a cohesive community but only because of Israel's existence. Can such a one sided symbiotic relationship produce a nation? It remains to be seen.

Panda: "Nino would not feel 'liberal white guilt' because...": OK, I will play..."Because he feels no guilt?" "Because he is a conservative?" If you are implying Nino is not white, not really a suprise. I COULD say "ignorance comes in all colours" but I like Nino, so I will refrain.

"If Panda and Rachamim do not live in NYC, why does Rachamim use NYC slang?": IT is in popular usage worldwide. Here in the Philippines for example, back in my main home on Mindanao I live very deep in the bush yet I can here Akon or 50 Cents 15 times a day on the local FM station. Sad as it is, the US rules the world in terms of culture (VERY sad indeed) and so it would be a safe bet to imagine many worldwide understand the vernacular.

"Rachamim evidently assumes anyone disagreeing with him is part and parcel of some monolithic ideological opposition.": Not by a longshot Panda. After 4 and something years one does get a sense of another's ideological slant.

"Not Rachamim's last bout of amnesia...": Probably, seeing as how I am a human and not infallible. I do try to be like you but try as I might, I just cannot get close. Darn!

"Panda will bear in mind that Rachamim would prbably relate more to Panda than revile him.": Promise?

 

[Refused as fuck]

Nino: Correct, "Palestine" has never existed. "Palestinians" are simply Arabs with a variety of backgrounds, most of whom have great grandparents from other nations. They do now enjoy a cohesive community but only because of Israel's existence. Can such a one sided symbiotic relationship produce a nation? It remains to be seen.

How long has Israel existed and what are the demographics of the population of Israel? "Variety of backgrounds", for fuck's sake. For how long do you envision the current state of Israel being able to strictly control its borders the way it does now in terms of this supposed ethnic purity implied in your post?

 

[rachamim18]

Refused: Of course the MODERN State of Israel has only existed since 1948. However, Jews have continuously lived there for 4500 years and have been the ONLY People to ever have had their own nation there. That Jews have been in many nations (our govt. often says 163 make up the Olim (those Jews who returned from Exile) they only entered those 163 nations out of losing their own homeland...which...of course...is where the MODERN State of Israel now eixsts. Hence, your argument, no offence, is full of holes and ignorant (not in the pejorative sense) of history and culture.

Arabs have NEVER had ANY nation on that land and when you offered your rebuttal you fully ignored this. Can you say the same of Jews?

I do not espouse ethnic purity any more than the French Govt. does for France. I simply allow that bse Nationalism is the solution for all that choose it. What dioes that sentence mean? It means that all national groups should be entitled to full self determination regardless of past historical injjustices and when more than one national group claims one parcel of land a series of factors should be considered, not least of which is who was there first in history and why did that first group lose preeminence?

I love leftists who revile all forms of Nationalism . Do they pretend that nations do not need a unfied culture or language in order to exist? Israel, as the hmeland of the Jewish PWEople, also has a very strong minority of non-Jews, of whom the largest cohesive group are the Arabs known as "Israeli-Arabs." They are not only given every single right I am, but are given extra rights on top and I SUPPORT THAT!!!

Pray tell, what then can anyone say of the issue? It is not fair? How so? that Jews are the majority is unfair? Again, how so? Pretending that different cultural groupings do not exist is foolhardy and we have seen over and over and over hopw that fallacy leads to bloodshed and chaos.

 

[Fruitloop]

Half the world never had a concept of nationhood until the colonial powers came and told them it did exist but unforuntately wasn't theirs.

 

[Fruitloop]

Pretending that different cultural groupings do not exist is foolhardy and we have seen over and over and over hopw that fallacy leads to bloodshed and chaos.

Dodgy history steals furtively onto the thread....

 

[rachamim18]

You are only thinking in terms of a Euro-Centric view. Nations have existed since the beginning of civlisation or do you somehow imagine that city-states do not constitute nations in their own right? Better send a telex to San Marino post haste!!!