Mac fanatic raves about Vista on a Mac!

[Jonti]

Interesting anecdote: When I go on holiday I usually ask friends to flat sit... As part of this I let them use my computer which has Ubuntu installed. Once I tell the which icon to click on for Internet and IM both were fine about using it. And these were both ditzy scene-queens and not computing professionals...!

Yeah, that's pretty much my experience. I've been pupating from a mainframe programmer for a while (gis' a job) and have built a little network as part of my self-retraining efforts. I let my children and friends use it at will. Problems of usability simply do not arise.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

shock horror! MS rip off apple again... when are they gonna start innovating?

shock horror mac rip of kde again... when are they going to start innovating...

 

[editor]

I let my children and friends use it at will. Problems of usability simply do not arise.

Until their friends bring around games that won't run on it, of course.

 

[jæd]

There's only 0.8% of visitors using Linux here, and 0.4% on urban75.org.

Where's "here"...? Do you have some stats tucked away somewhere...?

 

[untethered]

Don't forget I'm referring to "mainstream consumers."

Are they those people with fewer than 20 O'Reilly books?

Point taken. As I said earlier, Linux isn't for your average home user. Not an elitist statement but one of regrettable fact.

 

[Jonti]

I'd be delighted to see Linux's user base increase considerably, but you're dreaming if you think it'll magically remain immune to DRM once it starts to seriously impact on The Man's earnings.

Well, that depends on whether the system is designed to meet consumer needs, or those of The Man. MS has made its choice -- and it chose to write what has been authoritively described (with argument and evidence) the longest suicide note in history.

Others remain free to choose differently.

 

[editor]

Where's "here"...? Do you have some stats tucked away somewhere...?

'Here' is urban75.net - you know, the place we're both looking at now - and yes, just like every other webmaster, I have access to the user stats for the site.

 

[Jonti]

Until their friends bring around games that won't run on it, of course.

The kids mainly play internet games in any case.

 

[editor]

Point taken. As I said earlier, Linux isn't for your average home user. Not an elitist statement but one of regrettable fact.

I agree with you, but I do wonder what might happen if its popularity started to really soar.

 

[jæd]

I'd be delighted to see Linux's user base increase considerably, but you're dreaming if you think it'll magically remain immune to DRM once it starts to seriously impact on The Man's earnings.

I think someone needs to explain "open-source" to the Editor...

 

[editor]

The kids mainly play internet games in any case.

Good job because they won't have any choice!

 

[editor]

I think someone needs to explain "open-source" to the Editor...

I think someone needs to explain big business and the copyright laws to jæd.

Bless. Such naivety.

 

[jæd]

'Here' is urban75.net - you know, the place we're both looking at now - and yes, just like every other webmaster, I have access to the user stats for the site.

Oh... I was hoping for something a bit more mainstream, comprehensive...

 

[editor]

Oh... I was hoping for something a bit more mainstream, comprehensive...

Yes, they are comprehensive, but I've no interest in going through the effort of publishing them.

 

[jæd]

The kids mainly play internet games in any case.

Either that or use consoles.... Or play the constant-upgrade cycle with PC gaming...!

 

[Jonti]

Good job because they won't have any choice!

Of course they have a choice! But even GTA pales after a while. Internet based games are the thing that keeps my kids and their friends happy.

 

[untethered]

Others remain free to choose differently.

Not until Linux (or any other open source system) gets its act together.

Generally, the OS itself is good. The applications tend to be lousy, with a few notable exceptions that are better than their proprietary counterparts (eg. Firefox).

Most home users have to interact with proprietary applications at school/college/work. If Linux is going to work, it needs to work seamlessly with documents from MS Office, including Access, at the very minimum. While OpenOffice is a good system if you're using it exclusively, it still doesn't interoperate well with MS Office.

Linux's strength is its flexibility, modularity and configurability. Unfortunately, that's also its weakness. Consumer users don't care what print subsystem or audio subsystem they're using. They have absolutely no interest in what a codec is, let alone discerning which ones they might need and how to install them.

I have hope that eventually these things will be sorted out. K/Ubuntu is a big step in the right direction. However, Linux as a drop-in replacement for Windows for the average home user is still a way off.

 

[Jonti]

But those of us who help folks to do just that, tend, on the basis of our experience, to disagree ...

When it comes to exchanging documents, my experience is that the other party will not notice any problems (as long as you don't *tell* them you're using Linux, of course). I send and receive *.rtf (and sometimes *.doc files) regularly.

Macros in Office can be a problem. But that's not something that is likely to concern most home users. If you're thinking of equipping a small office with Ubuntu, I'd say it's well worth considering.

 

[RaverDrew]

But they won't, will they?

To your average punter, you're an advanced user. The very fact you bothered to give up time and energy to install an alternative OS proves that.

Not really, it was an experiment to see what all the fuss was about. I was shocked by how simple it really was, as I've always been a bit of a Xp fanboy.

It took me less time and just as little headscratching (ie.none) as an Xp install.

I'd be mad to go back now as there is no way in a million years that any of my pc's could run Vista, they can barely even run Xp/2000.

I'd feel more than confident that most people I know with very little computer experience could set up Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu with just a live install disk and a few simple written instructions. And mark my words I'll be putting this theory into practice over the next few weeks.

 

[Jonti]

Not really, it was an experiment to see what all the fuss was about. I was shocked by how simple it really was, as I've always been a bit of a Xp fanboy.

It took me less time and just as little headscratching (ie.none) as an Xp install.

I'd be mad to go back now as there is no way in a million years that any of my pc's could run Vista, they can barely even run Xp/2000.

I'd feel more than confident that most people I know with very little computer experience could set up Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu with just a live install disk and a few simple written instructions. And mark my words I'll be putting this theory into practice over the next few weeks.

I'd agree with all that. I've recently slapped XP onto this very box. The installation was more complicated and required more user intervention and input than an Ubuntu install.

 

[untethered]

Macros in Office can be a problem. But that's not something that is likely to concern most home users. If you're thinking of equipping a small office with Ubuntu, I'd say it's well worth considering.

I'd say you're insane.

If it's a new organisation, you might just get away with it.

If it's an existing organisation, they'll have a huge pile of applications and documents in proprietary formats that you'll need to convert.

I haven't come across any substantial organisation that doesn't have a dirty heap of Access databases somewhere nor a pile of idiosyncratic macro-laden Excel spreadsheets.

Do you fancy migrating someone's Sage Payroll and retraining the staff? And for what benefit to them, precisely?

Ironically, business users may well be less bothered about DRM than the average home user. Businesses tend to pay for their licenced content and use relatively little of it.

 

[jæd]

I haven't come across any substantial organisation that doesn't have a dirty heap of Access databases somewhere nor a pile of idiosyncratic macro-laden Excel spreadsheets.

Do you fancy migrating someone's Sage Payroll and retraining the staff? And for what benefit to them, precisely?

Use Crossover... It lets you run Windows applications within Linux... Works very well and gives you the best bits of Linux with the best bits of Windows... I tend to use it since it allows me to send/receive Office documents without having to worry about format changes...

I've never tried it with Access but thats only because I (thankfully) don't have to...!

 

[Jonti]

When I said, "If you're thinking of equipping a small office with Ubuntu" I meant a new office, one without a load of legacy "applications" stitched together out of MS Office macros. Far too many small businesses run snide software. That can bankrupt you if you're caught. And it can be too expensive to buy the licenses needed. Ubuntu gives these folks a way out.

For example, if you don't want to pay for Windows Server, and to pay a client license for each machine that uses the server, you don't need to, not anymore. When it comes to printer and file sharing, most small offices will find Samba to be a quality replacement for Windows Server.

But to talk specifically about Office applications ... Open Office has a rather superior scripting ability -- but it's not compatible with MS Office macros. Those macros would ned to be re-written, and that would often be difficult or expensive.

Folks who've already built systems with MS macros are going to have to work very hard to extricate themselves from the MS maw. Almost everyone else is far more fortunate.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I think someone needs to explain "open-source" to the Editor...

i think someone needs to explain open source to jæd actually... technically there is nothing wiht in the licencing which prevents nayone charging at any time for open source software it's installation or confingureation period it' merel that the code still needs to be accessable as do the copyright notices...

 

[Jonti]

I think jaed knows his stuff. He is perhaps a little abrasive on occasion, but that's hardly a trait unique to him, is it?

So's to avoid a spat (hah! fat chance!!), yes, you can sell GPL and opensource software. I'd be surprised if jaed was unaware of the activities of Red Hat, for example.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Not really, it was an experiment to see what all the fuss was about. I was shocked by how simple it really was, as I've always been a bit of a Xp fanboy.

It took me less time and just as little headscratching (ie.none) as an Xp install.

I'd be mad to go back now as there is no way in a million years that any of my pc's could run Vista, they can barely even run Xp/2000.

I'd feel more than confident that most people I know with very little computer experience could set up Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu with just a live install disk and a few simple written instructions. And mark my words I'll be putting this theory into practice over the next few weeks.

the simple fact you use an internet forum and know of other opperating systems which are distinct and different from each other windows mac and linux makes you to the average user advanced...

one of the first tech jobs i ever had was basically because i could cut and paste using keyboards print and add a printer and alt/tab... that was the extent of my knowledge, yet becuase this was significantly more than other people in the office i got given the tech work... the arverage user is frankly technologically illiterate who can at a push plug in an ipod and install from a cd... that's advanced levels for them...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I think jaed knows his stuff. He is perhaps a little abrasive on occasion, but that's hardly a trait unique to him, is it?

So's to avoid a spat (hah! fat chance!!), yes, you can sell GPL and opensource software. I'd be surprised if jaed was unaware of the activities of Red Hat, for example.

my point is that what would happen is that one particularlly usefull piece of open source software with one unquie feature which was added as a propreitory code base as afork of the original code base would then become a chargeable but essentail app on a machine meanign that of course those with the money to pay developers to develop that are going to be the big multi nationals with drm investments...

then that killer app will become a killing app.. when it zaps of the os market...

as soon as the market place becomes threatening we will destory the market place.... as the old capitalist saying goes... o/s is great i love it i''m heavliy involved it doesn't mean that once tha man decides it's too much of a threat they won't attack it or change their profit models etc to absorb it or counter it... as is needed you'd be a fool to think other wise....

 

[Jonti]

The huge advantage Windows has is the fact it comes pre-installed on most machines that are sold. That's not because people chose that situation and brought it about via the open play of market forces -- it's because a monopoly has stitched us all up, consumers, businesses, retailers and OEMs alike.

And yes, it's true that stuff like setting the bios to boot from a CD, partitioning, setting up a dual boot and so on can be a little daunting. That's why this project for a windows based installer is so promising. It looks as if it's exactly what's needed to maintain Ubuntu's breathtaking rate of adoption.

The aim of this installer is to provide an easier way for a Windows user to install Ubuntu without having to know how to burn a cd iso, set the bios to boot from cd, repartition the disks, set up a multiboot system, etc. It will not replace any of the current Ubuntu installation options, and will not require that windows is installed prior to the installation of Ubuntu.

The installer works by creating a disk image of a pre-installed ubuntu system on the hard disk (downloaded with a bittorrent downloader integrated into the installer, or a standard http download when we find mirrors), and then installing GRUB for windows, which can be chain loaded by the existing boot loader, and which then loads the linux kerner and initrd from the ntfs partition. The initrd is modified to support mounting the image file mentioned above as a root file system, and then continuing the boot process like a normal installation.

This does not use a virtual machine to run linux on, so the performance of the resulting system will be similar to the performance of any other linux installation. The system will use ext3 in the image file, so users will get all the benefits of a linux filesystem.

 

[Jonti]

I agree we are seing many underhand tactics being deployed to stop people working together to build and share the resources they need.

I don't think those attempts will work. Why should individuals, businesses, industries and nations pony up the MS tax if they have any choice in the matter!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I agree we are seing many underhand tactics being deployed to stop people working together to build and share the resources they need.

I don't think those attempts will work. Why should individuals, businesses, industries and nations pony up the MS tax if they have any choice in the matter!

thing is i don't think they do have a choice on the matter...

no other company offers the level of potential serivce contracts or suppliers of service contracts for other products this is where M$ have the cartel sewn up ...