M19 - pointless stunt or worthwhile action?

[In Bloom]

Is your alternative to do nothing?

No, my alternative is to not pretend that publicity stunts that exist at at least one remove from everyday life can reasonably be considered a form of direct action in themselves.

Though while we're on the subject, do nothing about what specifically?

 

[The Black Hand]

This entire thread is fucking pointless - we don't know in advance of what happens in the run up to it or the numbers that turn up, what they get up to etc... Anybody pontificating that it will be a 'pointless stunt' when it really kicks off into a minor class war on the day - will not only look stupid - they will deserve some teeth removing.

 

[e19896]

i have a very serious problem with this form of protest it often leads to conflict with the forces of Babylon see http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/12/358120.html the police are often more prepared than us if we are going to take on the state then we start to form paramilitary units prepared to take them on

i remember j18 all to well we had the chance to riot on a big scale cause thousands pounds worth of damage it is when we damage there property the begin to listen it when we fail to damage there property they impose the cja act of 1994

middle class protest of this kind only impacts on those the middle class proclaim to be fighting for the working class we watched this with g8 in and the fucking clowns who made every effort to stop the rightful uprising of the locals groups like circa (clown insurgent rebel army) are in my thoughts no more than lackeys of the state

no better then the scum of The SWP who we know all to well are infiltrated by M15 another example was the occupation of Iraq it is not a war.

Yes we need action to remember 4 years of occupation of Iraq but that action has to something more than the deluded dreams of the middle class

 

[Donna Ferentes]

This entire thread is fucking pointless - we don't know in advance of what happens in the run up to it or the numbers that turn up, what they get up to etc... Anybody pontificating that it will be a 'pointless stunt' when it really kicks off into a minor class war on the day - will not only look stupid - they will deserve some teeth removing.

Really? You think you'd like to see the teeth kicked in of people who say this?

 

[e19896]

This entire thread is fucking pointless - we don't know in advance of what happens in the run up to it or the numbers that turn up, what they get up to etc... Anybody pontificating that it will be a 'pointless stunt' when it really kicks off into a minor class war on the day - will not only look stupid - they will deserve some teeth removing.

I had posted my comment befor the comment posted by Attica and yes right in context it is about numbers but at the end of the day it is right to ponticate (debate) if this will be a pointless stunt my feelings are it will be becuase the middle class are faileing to gain the support the anger of the working class we only need to see the rise of The BNP where that anger is going..

If only we was to oraganise into paramilitary units then perhaps we might gain the supprt and respect of our class the working class until that moment we are being very deluded to say the least..

 

[e19896]

Really? You think you'd like to see the teeth kicked in of people who say this?

Yes i would love to kick the hourse teath of The Middle Class down the mouths.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Uh huh.

Is there any reason why you should be permitted on a forum for civilised debate when you're a violent and intolerant thug?

 

[e19896]

Uh huh.

Is there any reason why you should be permitted on a forum for civilised debate when you're a violent and intolerant thug?

do you know me? how can you claim one is a violent and intolerant thug?

perhaps if you took time out to understand my class perspective how much i work dispite being homeless for my class the working class see http://www.myspace.com/sheffieldsquatters see http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2006/12/357514.html and dispite serious harrasment from the police we continue to offer suport for those in need one last point http://www.synergynet.co.uk/sheffield-iraq/ info on a delegation i helped organise to iraq..

 

[Crispy]

Pointless Situationism

 

[Donna Ferentes]

do you know me? how can you claim one is a violent and intolerant thug?

How indeed?

Yes i would love to kick the hourse teath of The Middle Class down the mouths.

 

[e19896]

How indeed?

look i aint gooing to feed you Donna Ferentes you took my coment out any context and class perspective i would not make such crass asumptions about yourself Donna Ferentes and i do not wellcome you doing so about myself any how goodbye back to topic befor it gets of the subject m19..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

you took my coment out any context and class perspective

You mean it's not thuggery as long as it's middle-class teeth that you're kicking?

 

[The Black Hand]

Really? You think you'd like to see the teeth kicked in of people who say this?

All doubts are traitors to achievement.

 

[e19896]

Donna Ferentes Please read allso relevent to the coversation about M19

For reasons of convenience we will group it according to conventional historical definitions of what constitutes a war. Of course, this has its problems. Capitalism is a war machine. Its very existence is competition and there is a continuous possibility that this competition will express itself in a military form. It's not really possible to say where one "official" war ends and another begins. For example, what are the dates of the so-called Second World War? Even the official answer depends which country you are in. Perhaps the "Spanish Civil War" should be considered as part of the "Second World War" - even some bourgeois historians describe it as a "dress rehearsal". Given the continued use of anti-fascist ideology by almost all fractions of the ruling class, we could argue that the Second World War never ended - the ruling class are still slaughtering the working class in the name of anti-fascism! But we will try to stick to the conventional historical categories... or sometimes invent some of own. For example, we are not going to bother working out exactly how many wars took place on the territory of what was once the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia in the years 1991-2001 or exactly where and when each one took place. Suffice it to say that there were a lot of different capitalist fractions involved who used a lot of different ideologies to justify what they were doing (massacring proletarians!). If you are an apologist for the capitalist system who believes in "just" wars this must be very confusing - who do you (critically) support? For us there is no such confusion. We are against the patriotic butchers on all sides and with the strikers, draft dodgers, deserters, and general unpatriotic malcontents on all sides.

source http://www.geocities.com/nowar_buttheclasswar/History_Of_Working_Class_Resistance.html

 

[e19896]

More reading..

http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm

 

[In Bloom]

Pointless Situationism

No, just a spectacle that gets focussed on to the exclusion of the massive social movement that came before and after it.

Who mentioned situationism by the way?

 

[In Bloom]

This entire thread is fucking pointless - we don't know in advance of what happens in the run up to it or the numbers that turn up, what they get up to etc... Anybody pontificating that it will be a 'pointless stunt' when it really kicks off into a minor class war on the day - will not only look stupid - they will deserve some teeth removing.

Oh joy, just blind trial and error is it?

 

[e19896]

Oh joy, just blind trial and error is it?

no situationism is just a stunt by often white privalged often middle class persons very much trial error polatics the cost is the police get to practice how to kick in people often the middle class (and i do laugh at this spectical) then take it back to the working class communitys all to often the actions of the middle class have seen new laws that do not impact upon them but the working class from the CJA of 1994 to SOCPA see http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/12/358202.html and
"if the police win, then it will be another dark day for democracy and human rights in this country, establishing the freedom of the police to take a legislative role against protesters, and destroying centuries of hard-won progress in justice and rights." and i know from past experiance such laws will not only be used to crimanilse protest but against the working class what i have against actions such as M19 as it is been called we need to learn new ways of dealing with the police state we know live in..

 

[The Black Hand]

Oh joy, just blind trial and error is it?

If only you applied that to yourselves!! You don't even experiment!! You wonder why nobody takes you seriously when you have no ambition beyond the routine...

All doubts are traitors to achievement. In the context of a large action you should do some other ('better' you may say) struggle rather than spread division and sectarianism... It is other peoples struggle and you have no right to 'sabotage' it (I admit - a pretty fierce word).

Afterwords is the time to look at the call out, the mobilisation (or lack of) where it failed, where it could have done better...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

My doubts involve your common sense and e19896's sanity.

 

[The Black Hand]

My doubts involve your common sense and e19896's sanity.

I prefer to use good sense as opposed to your common sense...

 

[In Bloom]

If only you applied that to yourselves!! You don't even experiment!! You wonder why nobody takes you seriously when you have no ambition beyond the routine...

All doubts are traitors to achievement. In the context of a large action you should do some other ('better' you may say) struggle rather than spread division and sectarianism... It is other peoples struggle and you have no right to 'sabotage' it (I admit - a pretty fierce word).

Afterwords is the time to look at the call out, the mobilisation (or lack of) where it failed, where it could have done better...

This sort of bollocks has been done before though. It didn't work then and it won't work now, we don't need to do things that have been done before to look at the likelyhood of them working.

 

[The Black Hand]

This sort of bollocks has been done before though. It didn't work then and it won't work now, we don't need to do things that have been done before to look at the likelyhood of them working.

Given that nothing works (gets us to the 'promised land') as per your logic the alternative is sitting at home with a XXX DvD with a big box of hankies (you'll need it cos you'll never do anything)...

FFS - if you actually were part of something that looked like it was succesful people would flock to you (me included) but you are needless to say, are not. Either get a better alternative or shut up.

 

[e19896]

My doubts involve your common sense and e19896's sanity.

as said you do not know me nither anything about my good self therefor you can not comment on my sanity.

sanity all to often used against those who find themselves more radical than the norm againe more reading and i urge you Donna Ferentes you take time to read http://www.southern.com/southern/label/CRC/text/09438.html befor you raise against comments against my sanity etc..

i have an illnass named Bipolar disorder more reading on this illnass conversation then pm me i desire not participate in de railing this conversation in further comments to your crass remarks..

 

[In Bloom]

Given that nothing works (gets us to the 'promised land') as per your logic the alternative is sitting at home with a XXX DvD with a big box of hankies (you'll need it cos you'll never do anything)...

FFS - if you actually were part of something that looked like it was succesful people would flock to you (me included) but you are needless to say, are not. Either get a better alternative or shut up.

*yawn*

You don't actually "do" debate, do you?

 

[winjer]

Historical, theoretical or contemporary? I only ask because I whichever one I go for, some cunt's going to jump in and accuse me of either being stuck in the past, not talking about the real world enough or being ahistorical.

Contemporary would be a good start.

Oh aye, because the rest of the country is so deeply informed about the politics and internal wrangling of CIRCA

No, precisely because they aren't, the rest of the country doesn't form a view on CIRCA (in as much as they do at all) based on three seconds of video and a single account on Indymedia, and extrapolate from there that "the fucking clowns made every effort to stop the rightful uprising of the locals" (for example), because for the majority of the locals that wasn't their experience on the streets, and for everyone else they don't give a fuck what is said on Indymedia, and are far more likely to have read one of the many articles linking CIRCA to the Black Bloc/Wombles/Raven, for example:

The demo was billed as an anti-G8 "carnival". But about 150 police walked into a well-planned ambush as they pursued one gang next to the Standard Life HQ building. As they herded them under a bridge, they were showered with wooden panels, rotting rubbish bags and even an old flat iron. The officers charged the group - believed to be the extreme Rebel Clown Army - and put them to flight. (source)

 

[In Bloom]

Contemporary would be a good start.

A good example for me would be the people who successfully had a dangerous and unrepentant nonce removed from their community just today.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And where's he gone?

 

[In Bloom]

IIRC, he's been placed in secure accomodation temporarily.

Maybe next time they'll think to consult people before dumping a dangerous sex offender on them.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Jolly d.

Let's hope the people who live near (or indeed in) the secure accommodation don't have a problem with that.