'Lyrical terrorist' convicted

[treelover]

Not many of them by most reports

and anarchists walk around Notting Hill shouting slogans at rich people.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

My point was that in terms of threat and risk assessment, some little anarcho twit with the cookbook and some smash the rich posters is historically less likely to act on his own rhetoric than Muslims have demonstrated on at least 2 occassions in the UK.

Incidentally, I basically agree with the FoS stuff, and as I said several posts ago she shouldn't go down for this, but most people on here are taking individual elements of what's happened instead of looking at the whole - membership of jihadist groups AND writing racist lyrics that encourage violence AND publishing them online (under her own name too...)...

But there are still those on Urban who would fucking howl at the moon if it had been a BNP supportr with all this stuff who was subsequently let off in court over it.

And i think that you're missing the point that she wasn't convicted of being a member of any particular organisation but was found "guilty by a majority of 10 to one of possessing records likely to be used for terrorism" whatever that means.

So given the fact that there are white power musical groups that have proven affiliations to pseudo-terrorist organisations, who play gigs with songs that are extremely racist and sell their stuff via the net, I'm interested in why you appear to think that FoS is important but possibly only in the case of whiteys? After all, Copeland predated the 2 references you made and we had the 2 recent BNP fuckwits up north trying to make explosives. Why no appetite to try out racial incitement for Skrewdriver and their ilk do you think? Double standards perchance?

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm interested in why you appear to think that FoS is important but possibly only in the case of whiteys?

Then you haven't understood my posts or positions on the issue - I'd be quite happy for all the BNP lot to be up on similar charges and go through similar public humiliation at the hands of the courts.

Tell you what - find a single individual with a comparable collection of white power stuff like this girl and I'll personally go and report them to the OB for the same offence.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I've said before kyser, it takes a little google to find all kinds of quite outrageous material that could easily be classed as offensive, imo, as anything that I've read about in this girl's case. I'm not posting anything here cos (1) it's a not proper to link to those sites and (2) i'm at work.

What i am interested in is how you square your avowed support of freedom of expression/speech with a prosecution that does appear to be, at least in part, based on someone expressing an opinion. I'm sure when there was a massive thread a while back about the mad welsh anti-gay bloke that you were completely against the idea of censorship or prescription in terms of people saying what they felt - or am i confusing you with someone else perhaps?

 

[kyser_soze]

As I've said on the FoS threads that have touched on speech that calls for direct violent action (e.g. incitement to murder) that while I don't agree with it on principle, unfortunately we don't live in a society where it's possible to believe that someone standing around demanding that will be ignored and ridiculed.

She wrote and published, publicly, a racist document calling for keffa to be beheaded. If you can point me in the direction of someone in the BNP who has published something equally offensive and direct as a call to action I am serious about reporting them myself.

This prosecution was based on a pattern of behaviour that, unfortunately for her, got her noticed by the OB and because she was stupid enough to publish under her own name she got caught and is dealing with the consequences.

When I was 21 I was arrested and charged with breach of the peace for a CJA related demo that had involved breaking and entering a building, occupying it and making as much noise as possible. I knew what I was doing was potentiall illegal, and I knew that I could be prosecuted for it but I went ahead and did it anyway - the difference being that when we were arrested I didn't start fucking crying that my actions had a consequence.

 

[nosos]

The other part thinks that freedom of speech maybe shouldn't extend to encouraging people to cut off the heads of kuffar swine.

Should she be censored in principle, or as a means to some end? The former is a (very) slippy slope and in the latter case I'm open to being empirically persuaded that sending people to jail for writing poems helps fight terrorism rather than further radicalise people.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Breaking into a building isn't the same thing as saying something or writing it down. So don't see where that argument's going really. And I've said repeatedly that I'm not about to post up links to similarly misguided and childish lyrics calling for the extermination of the Jewish race, for eg, or another lovely ditty threatening black people with a fate similar to Stephen Lawrence. But they're out there, fuck me, one google is all it takes. Just doesn't seem to be the same appetite for taking on the white power lot for some reason.

"Let us make Jihad/ Move to the front line/ To chop chop head of kuffar swine" - racist? Can't see it myself, seeing as how kuffar is a catch-all term for non-believers. Distasteful, yes indeed, worth arguing about, most definitely, worth locking up for, not in my opinion. Where do you draw the line otherwise?

 

[david dissadent]

"Let us make Jihad/ Move to the front line/ To chop chop head of kuffar swine" - racist? Can't see it myself, seeing as how kuffar is a catch-all term for non-believers. Distasteful, yes indeed, worth arguing about, most definitely, worth locking up for, not in my opinion. Where do you draw the line otherwise?

I'd not recomend singing that in Soweto mind. But that is an asside.

 

[kyser_soze]

worth locking up for, not in my opinion

Neither do I (see posts passim)...and on the racism thing...sorry, should have said 'bigotry'.

 

[JoePolitix]

David Osler has it right:

http://www.davidosler.com/2007/11/the_lyrical_terrorist_and_stur.html

 

[Brainaddict]

Should she be censored in principle, or as a means to some end? The former is a (very) slippy slope and in the latter case I'm open to being empirically persuaded that sending people to jail for writing poems helps fight terrorism rather than further radicalise people.

Good question and I didn't really think it through before posting. I probably don't agree with the censorship on principle, but then as a means to an end (which you could make a case for - trying to decrease rhetoric of bigotted violence at a particular point in political developments) it risks a huge backlash.
It was kind of a gut reaction and maybe I don't really think she should have been convicted for it. I'm a liberal fence-sitter

 

[nosos]

I think criminalising "hate speech" is probably ineffective given its potential to radicalise those who don't see it as a hate speech. You could claim that allowing it may 'inspire' them? I remain to be convinced.

 

[Brainaddict]

I think criminalising "hate speech" is probably ineffective given its potential to radicalise those who don't see it as a hate speech. You could claim that allowing it may 'inspire' them? I remain to be convinced.

I think arguments about this specific problem (as opposed to free speech principles) would revolve around the 'normalisation' of 'jihadist' language and trying to resist that.
It really does invite a backlash to suppress it on that basis though.

 

[denniseagle]

Just out of interest, am I correct in thinking this woman worked at Heathrow?

I believe she has/had a security pass that allowed her to work 'air side' ie past the normal security systems and checks the average air passenger faces.

Doesn't one of her poems relate to the growing need within herself to sacrifice herself for Jihad?

Is it any wonder some people felt a tad worried about her?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Fuckin ell, she'd have probably smuggled a samurai sword in, as well as a gallon of gin and some free cosmetics...ffs...

 

[untethered]

I think criminalising "hate speech" is probably ineffective given its potential to radicalise those who don't see it as a hate speech. You could claim that allowing it may 'inspire' them? I remain to be convinced.

This case isn't about hate speech. It's about possessing records useful to terrorists.

Do you think people should be allowed to possess records useful to terrorists?

 

[Loupylou]

She isn't sitting in a prison cell, and AFAIK wasn't on remand during the trial, which presumably says something about how the courts/police/CPS view her on the 'dangerous >>> stupid' scale, if you see what I mean.

If she does get sent down, then you could see that as excessive (I would), but if she's been sent home to sweat on it for a week, & then gets a non-custodial the 'punishment' will have been her absolutely bricking it for a while...

... as far as ruining her life, let's see what the end result is before getting all dramatic, eh......

as long as she isn't still working at Heathrow Airport by the end of it I'll be happier..........

 

[Loupylou]

She wrote and published, publicly, a racist document calling for keffa to be beheaded. If you can point me in the direction of someone in the BNP who has published something equally offensive and direct as a call to action I am serious about reporting them myself.

This prosecution was based on a pattern of behaviour that, unfortunately for her, got her noticed by the OB and because she was stupid enough to publish under her own name she got caught and is dealing with the consequences.

yeah - she should've been prosecuted under the Race Relations Act really, but the Govt wants to send out a message to young Muslims not to join terroist groups and fuck off to Pakistani training camps I guess.

 

[Loupylou]

"Let us make Jihad/ Move to the front line/ To chop chop head of kuffar swine" - racist? Can't see it myself, seeing as how kuffar is a catch-all term for non-believers. Distasteful, yes indeed, worth arguing about, most definitely, worth locking up for, not in my opinion. Where do you draw the line otherwise?

Oh.
Just seen this. I didn't know kuffar wasn't racist.

Happy days

 

[frogwoman]

kuffar's not - it's just a disparaging word for anyone who's not muslim, but "kaffir" is, it was a term used in apartheid south africa. Anyone saying it to someone there now would probably be lynched tbh (although unfortunately, that's not always the case).

I think this conviction is a bit dodgy myself - even if it was a white racist saying it.

i don't think she should get a severe sentence for this one - she is a stupid young girl who has just learnt a lesson.

 

[Fullyplumped]

kuffar's not - it's just a disparaging word for anyone who's not muslim, but "kaffir" is, it was a term used in apartheid south africa. Anyone saying it to someone there now would probably be lynched tbh (although unfortunately, that's not always the case).

If a Muslim describes you as kuffar swine then it really is quite OK to take offence, and you don't have to put up with it. If it isn't racist to call someone "kuffar" it's close enough.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

This case isn't about hate speech. It's about possessing records useful to terrorists.

It's what i was wondering about on the way home yesterday cos it's difficult to be clear from the coverage i've read about whether her "lyrics" or poems constitute any part of the charges and conviction or not. It's also difficult to establish whether her scribblings were used by the prosecution to back up their case or whether it's a detail that's simply been picked up by the media.

 

[detective-boy]

... but was found "guilty by a majority of 10 to one of possessing records likely to be used for terrorism" whatever that means.

So given the fact that there are white power musical groups that have proven affiliations to pseudo-terrorist organisations, who play gigs with songs that are extremely racist and sell their stuff via the net, I'm interested in why you appear to think that FoS is important but possibly only in the case of whiteys?

Please tell me that you don't really think "records" just means songs in this instance ...

 

[TAE]

Do you think people should be allowed to possess records useful to terrorists?

Erm, yes, things like street-maps and bus-timetables etc.

 

[Aldebaran]

Aldebaran, I don't think you really believe that.

There should be an emoticon for "sarcasm" but on the other hand this case shows how your society is heading towards McCarthy lunacy UK style.

Are people free to do things like this without sanction in the country you were born in,

Yes. (We all advocate to chop off heads of unbelievers, really. I sell the webdesign.)

or the country in which you now live?

I live there.

(I believe that they are different).

No.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

OK, so if I were to write 'We should behead all Muslims', publish it on the internet, and collect a large pile of information on racist groups in the UK etc you'd be happy if the police let me off would you? Indeed, using my white person writing this stuff example from post#2, you'd be having a shit fit if the OB let them off.

I think you should look around the internet(s).
(Even on this rather nicely calm website some posts and threads could qualify.)

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

"Let us make Jihad/ Move to the front line/ To chop chop head of kuffar swine" - racist? Can't see it myself, seeing as how kuffar is a catch-all term for non-believers. Distasteful, yes indeed, worth arguing about, most definitely, worth locking up for, not in my opinion. Where do you draw the line otherwise?

It is the intention by which the word is used that counts.
Maybe she doesn't even know it is an Arabic word, simply meaning "non believing" (kuffar is the plural form of kaafir).

It isn't "distasteful", it simply is a word meaning "non believer(s) or unbelieving.
In Islamic context used in conjunction with Allah (kaafir biallah) it means "unbeliever" and can point to an apostate but can also mean "ungrateful". It also functions in expressions like "hunger is a bad teacher" etc.. etc...

It has at least one Westernized version I know of in a Flemish dialect, where it is pronounced as "kaffer". That has a clear racist denegrating connotation although it is more widely used to point to idiots, good for nothing, etc...

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

This case isn't about hate speech. It's about possessing records useful to terrorists.

Do you think people should be allowed to possess records useful to terrorists?

I think I have a lot of that and so do these days many Western students of departments of Middle Eastern studies worldwide. Send them all to jail I say.

salaam.

 

[frogwoman]

If a Muslim describes you as kuffar swine then it really is quite OK to take offence, and you don't have to put up with it. If it isn't racist to call someone "kuffar" it's close enough.

If anyone called me that I'd give them a slap.

Im not saying it isn't offensive - it's just not a RACIST insult but anyone calling me that wouldn't hear the last of it

 

[Aldebaran]

If anyone called me that I'd give them a slap.

Why? Are you a Muslim?

salaam.