Loyalist paramilitaries or terrorists?

[fanta]

Ultimately, I'm begining to susect that it does not matter what the British government do or don't do.

This conflict will still be ongoing when our great children are becoming parents.

 

[oi2002]

What do 'terrorists' look like exactly? Do they have two heads or something? Or three eyes yeah thats it.

It is hard to tell:

The rumors that they are all short arsed closet homosexuals are of course entirely unfounded.

 

[sihhi]

I've been reading a few reoprts Re housing and segregation unease in Protestant communities.

Apparently there is a belief among working class Protestants that Sinn Fein want unionist people out of North Belfast

and that Catholics are in general trying to take houses away from Protestants- when housing conditions for Protestants are not good at all (the houses that haven't been repaired have gone downhill aswell)- basically that Catholics were getting all the goodies.

 

[flypanam]

I've been reading a few reoprts Re housing and segregation unease in Protestant communities.

Apparently there is a belief among working class Protestants that Sinn Fein want unionist people out of North Belfast

and that Catholics are in general trying to take houses away from Protestants- when housing conditions for Protestants are not good at all (the houses that haven't been repaired have gone downhill aswell)- basically that Catholics were getting all the goodies.

But with scarce resources that impression that the other side are getting all the benefits is going to be rampant.

 

[sihhi]

But with scarce resources that impression that the other side are getting all the benefits is going to be rampant.

Do you live in Belfast? What has happened to housing after promises were made when the NI Housing Condition Survey (of 2001) was published in 2003?

 

[flypanam]

No sorry i don't live south of the border, idris is your man for that!

 

[oi2002]

I've been reading a few reoprts Re housing and segregation unease in Protestant communities.

Apparently there is a belief among working class Protestants that Sinn Fein want unionist people out of North Belfast...

I'd dispute that SF have this as a policy these days but it is a stark reality that ethnic cleansing was a large part of the troubles and the means by which terrorists on both sides asserted control of their communities it continues to be practiced.

Fintain O'Toole says the GFA has been laid out for long enough is starting to whiff and it's time for burial

he governments can try to restart the process as if nothing had happened, giving us two more years of posturing in which all excitement about the agreement's radical ideals is stripped away. Or they can acknowledge the futility of trying to build shared governance on mutual hatred and begin a new political process that puts sectarianism where it should - not as a solution but as a problem.

but does mourn it's nobility

It defines Northern Ireland as a political space and seeks to do so in a genuinely radical, exciting way. It is, indeed, perhaps the boldest constitutional document ever agreed between sovereign states. It creates a space that is not ultimately claimed by any state, defines national identity as potentially both mutable and multiple, and rests sovereignty, not on history or geography but on that most complex and fluent of things - the collective mind of a majority of the population.

 

[gurrier]

I've been reading a few reoprts Re housing and segregation unease in Protestant communities.

Apparently there is a belief among working class Protestants that Sinn Fein want unionist people out of North Belfast

and that Catholics are in general trying to take houses away from Protestants- when housing conditions for Protestants are not good at all (the houses that haven't been repaired have gone downhill aswell)- basically that Catholics were getting all the goodies.

My understanding of what's going on in North belfast is the following (somebody may have better information).

The prod population is declining as anybody who can moves out to the suburbs does so. The catholic population is increasing. Hence there is huge pressure for housing for catholics and a fair amount of empty housing in prod estates. The loyalists see this as some sort of ethnic cleansing of their areas and have responded by burning out and otherwise rendering uninhabitable empty houses in their areas as otherwise catholics will be moved into them. However, they are facing the impossible opponent of population movements and the fact that no sane person would choose to move into a front-line loyalist controlled area in North belfast (would you want to live in an area controlled by psychopathic drug dealers?) The catholic population, for various reasons to do with the troubles is much less fragmented and their criminals at least have to pretend to do their bit for social cohesion (mostly be kneecapping teenagers unfortunately) and hence there is much less of a movement out of the area.

In short, a complete mess.

 

[sihhi]

The prod population is declining as anybody who can moves out to the suburbs does so. The catholic population is increasing. Hence there is huge pressure for housing for catholics and a fair amount of empty housing in prod estates. The loyalists see this as some sort of ethnic cleansing of their areas and have responded by burning out and otherwise rendering uninhabitable empty houses in their areas as otherwise catholics will be moved into them. However, they are facing the impossible opponent of population movements and the fact that no sane person would choose to move into a front-line loyalist controlled area in North belfast (would you want to live in an area controlled by psychopathic drug dealers?) The catholic population, for various reasons to do with the troubles is much less fragmented and their criminals at least have to pretend to do their bit for social cohesion (mostly be kneecapping teenagers unfortunately) and hence there is much less of a movement out of the area.

Yes-- the selectivity of this migration is important- poorer working class Protestants have remained in inner Belfast while rich more middle-class "sell out types" have left and don't have any attachment to the paramilitaries, don't see the release of Sean Kelly as particularly significant.
At the same time all that appears to be happening is space being made for Catholics to come in- but no improvements or repairs being made to the housing stock itself (and the main suspicion is there that Catholic areas receive improvements/new housing first, because as you state, so few Catholics actually move into Protestant areas).

As a result working-class Protestants feel sold out not only by Westminster a usual complaint- but by many of their own kind.

 

[oi2002]

Yes-- the selectivity of this migration is important- poorer working class Protestants have remained in inner Belfast while rich more middle-class "sell out types" have left and don't have any attachment to the paramilitaries, don't see the release of Sean Kelly as particularly significant...

Nah the middle class flight model just isn't applicable to Belfast ghettos. The Prods did leave Belfast though.

I can't remmber a time when the Shankhill wasn't poor. The middle class were never a signifigant precense in the Prod ghettos they sold out long before the troubles and moved to Bangor. It did have work however mainly in the traditionally Protestant and very sectarian industrial employers like H&W and Shorts. Well the 70s and to some small extent the Troubles and fair employment legislation, meant a lot of those Prod jobs vanished from Belfast's shrinking heavy industries. New employers set up in the surburban hinterland of Belfast and working class Prods moved en-masse to large estates on the edges of towns like Lisburn, N'Ards, and even gentile Bangor.

Belfast is (Stoke!) a bleak town at the best of times and in the 70s the Troubles made it dismal. We are also talking about what the EU reported was some of the worst housing in Europe. You had to be have a fanatically tribal attachment to the place or be trapped in a house with a rent fixed in the 40s to persist. But I'd put the strange lack of mobility of the Catholic population down to different employment patterns, a slim difference in standards of living and a higher birthrate that existed back in those more Priest ridden days.

Large numbers of Prods sensibly left the gloomy basket case of the 6Cs mostly to settle round London. Many returned while the house prices were still low in the 90s and GFA looked hopeful so their kids could get a decent education. Having profitted from the English housing boom most did not return to streets of half empty terraced housing. Ironically these smug bastards upset all the demographic predictions that underpinned SF's eagerness accept the GFA and get to Stormont.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Sorry if any one else has replied to this wee runt. But I can't get past this post.

it's the same reason the IRA was able to pull off the biggest robbery in british history and get away with it.

You have proof???

The level of violence in these riots has been quite shocking. loyalists never normally have the co ordination or fight in them for prolonged attacks on the police. But this goes beyond even republican civil unrest (republicans generally made sure to keep gunfire away from riots).

Of course the question I have for all two bit radicals out there is, if these people are fighting the police and army because they don't want to be forced into another state then surely you should be defending their right to independence. Surely that is the logic of national liberation?

No son these arseholes are fighting the police because they don't want to be forced to allow their fellow countrymen similar rights as their own. Like the KKK in America were non so keen on equal rights for blacks.

Of course there is nothing progressive about this violence much like there is nothing progressive about republicans attacking the security forces, it tends to boil down to machismo, hoods and good dash of bigotry.

I think republican attacks worked. It let them know they weren't happy with the service. If you buy faulty goods from Argos you don't just sit in the house and hope they come round and refund you. You have to give them a little nudge.

Oh and for all the arseholes who think the PSNI will go easy on them, believe me they won't. In fact they've already returned live rounds.

Who's the arseholes?

Im still quite shocked that loyalists could co ordinate such sustained rioting, normally they do after a few pints and then fuck off home when they start to get a sore head.

Agreed

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Ultimately, I'm begining to susect that it does not matter what the British government do or don't do.

This conflict will still be ongoing when our great children are becoming parents.

I would be very surprised if you ever could produce a child, never mind a great child.

I'm begining to "susect" that you don't live in a glass house.

 

[fanta]

I would be very surprised if you ever could produce a child, never mind a great child.

I'm begining to "susect" that you don't live in a glass house.

You know what I meant - our great grandchildren.

I don't think that the British government are able to do anything to solve the conflict. Leaving Northern Ireland, though I think and want that to happen eventually, would only confirm the worst fears of unionists and lead to open civil war. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The Republicans have never done enough to convince ordinary working class Protestants that their future would be safe and indeed better within the framework of a united Ireland.

Quite simply, the two communities hate each other with a murderous passion. The simplistic Republican perspective that the root cause of the conflict is just British imperialism is as archaic as it is false.

Yes, the British have too often exacerbated and compounded the problem, but Northern Ireland suffers from the worst sort of tribal antipathy which can be traced back to the Reformation and the religious wars of the 17th century rather than merely 19th and 20th century British interference.

There, I said it...

 

[cemertyone]

You know what I meant - our great grandchildren.

I don't think that the British government are able to do anything to solve the conflict. Leaving Northern Ireland, though I think and want that to happen eventually, would only confirm the worst fears of unionists and lead to open civil war. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The Republicans have never done enough to convince ordinary working class Protestants that their future would be safe and indeed better within the framework of a united Ireland.

Quite simply, the two communities hate each other with a murderous passion. The simplistic Republican perspective that the root cause of the conflict is just British imperialism is as archaic as it is false.

Yes, the British have too often exacerbated and compounded the problem, but Northern Ireland suffers from the worst sort of tribal antipathy which can be traced back to the Reformation and the religious wars of the 17th century rather than merely 19th and 20th century British interference.

There, I said it...

eh????? i`m not even gonna bother!!!!!

 

[fanta]

That'll be a refreshing change.

Thanks.

 

[revol68]

seems like fantas the only one able to get past the "anti imperialist" rhetoric and deal with actual reality. Youse might be interested to know that his views are probably the most common amongst people in the north and certainly amongst those who are fed up with the whole sorry mess.

 

[gurrier]

seems like fantas the only one able to get past the "anti imperialist" rhetoric and deal with actual reality. Youse might be interested to know that his views are probably the most common amongst people in the north and certainly amongst those who are fed up with the whole sorry mess.

You might be interested to read the thread and not confine yourself to dealing with the imaginary republican windmills in your head. Your comment bears no relation to the majority of contributions to this thread, not even vaguely. You could also perhaps try to add something of your own analysis rather than just sniping.

On another note, it strikes me as fairly interesting that it appears that there was no real attempt to attack catholics in these riots and all the venom was directed towards the state. 2 DUP offices even got burnt down.

I also think that the whole sorry mess in loyalist areas is a good example of the consequences of having a working class ideology defined by loyalty to the state. They got some minor privileges and favouritism while they were needed but as soon as they weren't needed anymore they got cast away and left with shattered communities and an ideology that is entirely useless as a tool for understanding the world. A realisation of this on some level could be behind this latest flare up, which appears almost nihilistic in nature.

 

[revol68]

gurrier i honestly will not stoop so low as to deabte with bigots like dilzboy. You know very well my position in regards to the north, infact it's kinda laid out in a pmaphlet that none of youse in the WSM have managed to respond to in a meaninful way.

I will debate the north seriously on libcom but i will not do it on urban where the environment for such a debate is shit. As such i'll just engage in sniping on urban.

As for your point about loyalists realising they've been sold out, well duh, i think the general feeling in loyalist areas is that everyone has fucked off and left them in a mess. The UUP and event he DUP who for years told them they had their interests at heart have deserted them, there is now a huge political void and at the moment it's manifesting itself in a Millwall style "no one likes us and we don't care" attitude. I think the left in Ireland has not done much to help overcome this, generally preferring to wait on prods embracing some republicanism sweetened with a crap "socialism", continously we were told that prods had to break from "unionism", well now unionism has broke with them and the left hasn't a clue what to fucking do.

Anyway as i siad im not debating this on urban cos it's filled with moronic british leftists and plastic paddies like dilzybhoy.

 

[laptop]

i think the general feeling in loyalist areas is that everyone has fucked off and left them in a mess.

Paraphrasing (I think) Newton Emerson: their organisations' biggest problem is that there's no-one left to not surrender to.

 

[gurrier]

I think the left in Ireland has not done much to help overcome this, generally preferring to wait on prods embracing some republicanism sweetened with a crap "socialism",

I don't think that this is accurate. For example, it certainly isn't a fair characterisation of the SP line.

I think the left in Ireland has not done much to help overcome this, generally preferring to wait on prods embracing some republicanism sweetened with a crap "socialism", continously we were told that prods had to break from "unionism", well now unionism has broke with them and the left hasn't a clue what to fucking do.

Isn't this a very good argument as to why working class prods really do need to break with loyalism urgently? We are at a stage where the way that loyalty to the state is manifesting itself is blast bombs against her majesty's forces and the potential disbandment of the RIR is protested against by shooting at the RIR. I reckon that a clear break with loyalism is an urgent necessity and that any attempts to win influence for socialist politics that doesn't tackle this glaringly obvious fact head on is pointless and divorced from reality (the failure to do this is one of the reasons why I think the SP has had so little success in the wee north). Of course all this is much easier said than done, and there are a whole load of very concrete reasons why it is incredibly difficult (UDA/UVF/RHC/LVF come top of the list).

Note, I'm not talking about the question of partition here and I think that is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the north. There are no longer any forces left on the island who advocate the unification of the 26 and the 6 in anything other than a rhetorical sense and EU centralisation and neo-liberal economics are well on the way to making the border fairly irrelevant anyway.

Anyway as i siad im not debating this on urban cos it's filled with moronic british leftists and plastic paddies like dilzybhoy.

The presence of people who disagree with you is all the more reason to debate things. Not necessarily to persuade them, but an argument which has to deal with a wide range of contrary views is much more convincing to interested and open-minded observers.

 

[oi2002]

...I also think that the whole sorry mess in loyalist areas is a good example of the consequences of having a working class ideology defined by loyalty to the state. They got some minor privileges and favouritism while they were needed but as soon as they weren't needed anymore they got cast away and left with shattered communities and an ideology that is entirely useless as a tool for understanding the world. A realisation of this on some level could be behind this latest flare up, which appears almost nihilistic in nature.

Well I've called it nihillistic monarchism so I don't completely disaggree. But it's easy to get misled by the symbols of Loyalism. Most Ulster Prods have traditionally been patriotic in a very old fashioned way; a way that makes neo-facists like the BNP totally unelectable in Belfast simply because thay speak rather too well of Hitler. That is changing rapidly there has always been a deeply rebellious core in Loyalism that loyalty is ultimately to the community not to the perceived traitors in London. You also have a very nasty strain of terrorism/gangsterism that has been fostered by the post-GFA failure of policing and as always there is the old pattern of the young turks asserting control.

The political smell of it is more like the Bogside in 72 than anything. Politics just crashed and is burning; an escalation of pointless but cathartic violence is all too likely.

 

[cathal marcs]

Anyway as i siad im not debating this on urban cos it's filled with moronic british leftists and plastic paddies like dilzybhoy.

And you criticise Republicans for not debating with working class unionists. You really are full of your own importance you diva you.

 

[revol68]

yeah but arseholes like you are of no import to the situation, and I think there is a difference between not wishing to have discussion with some wanker on the internet than an actual ideology based on the patronisation/invisibility of nearly a million people. I mean I might not wish to have this debate on urban 75 but im not going to wage a fucking bombing campaign about it.

Gobshite.

 

[cathal marcs]

Who said anything about bombing campaigns? Also no need for the 'arsehole' and 'gobshite' do you know me or have I ever acted towards you online in an insulting way? Although I will put that down to your ill though of claims like you made on previous threads where I had got a senior member of a political party to challenge your claims.

Again no need for the digs

 

[nacho novo]

I think republican attacks worked. It let them know they weren't happy with the service. If you buy faulty goods from Argos you don't just sit in the house and hope they come round and refund you. You have to give them a little nudge.

I know you were talking to the wee Larne man, but I feel I must add a question at this point.

Given your above quote, is it fair to say that to get what you want politically in Northern Ireland you've got to riot?

 

[fanta]

And you criticise Republicans for not debating with working class unionists. You really are full of your own importance you diva you.

He has a point though doesn't he.

We have more than our fair share of narrow-minded sectarian armchair wannabe-provos who regale us with fascinating posts about how brave and righteous the IRA are in their heroic struggle against imperialism, all courageously posted from the safety of their PC screens, of course.

 

[cemertyone]

He has a point though doesn't he.

We have more than our fair share of narrow-minded sectarian armchair wannabe-provos who regale us with fascinating posts about how brave and righteous the IRA are in their heroic struggle against imperialism, all courageously posted from the safety of their PC screens, of course.

A bit like yourself then??????

 

[cathal marcs]

He has a point though doesn't he.

We have more than our fair share of narrow-minded sectarian armchair wannabe-provos

If you are refering to Dilzy I have yet to see a post by him that is sectarian. Some of his posts have been kneejerk reactions tobeing called a 'chuckie' a bit of a blanket condemnation of allrepublicans which I believe yo are as you once said you wanted a 32 county socialist republic a while back Yes he may support the provisional movement fair enough many people do. It doesn't mean they are 'sectarian'.

Secondly why shouldn't someone in the UK take an interest in the O6? I mean they are under rule of the UK afterall. If you use the logic you must be living there to have a correct view then who knows Adair may have a point that overrules anyone else. Or you have no right to speak about other issues such as Palestine, Iraq or basically anything. Sadly too many folk in the 6 counties seem to think they are the epicenter of the world.

May I add even if he has a point there is no use for the words 'wanker', 'arsehole', 'gobshite',and 'moron' in two rather short posts not saying anything bar how he is abve the rest of us and how stupid we all are

BTW check your PM

 

[revol68]

listen gobshit, i think it safes to say the vast majority of people are just fed up with the pathetic politics in the north. It is especially a trend amongst prods, with most of the ones with an oppurtunity to get out, doing so. It just seems to be a bunch of bigots or politicos that seem to care about what shitty flag flies over the north east.

The hypocrisy of republicans knows no limits, for years they campaigned against plastic bullets and heavy handed policing, yet soon as the prods are out they turn into Tories, screaming for a "tough response" and teach the "prods" they can't use blackmail. No one I know supported the rioting of the past week, no one I know has any really time for the arseholes who took to the streets, but at the same time they can' t help but snigger at the false indignation of republicans .

Lot of people seem to forget the IRA's deliberate strategy of destabilisation in the 70's. Instead we have revisionists seeking to lump it in with the struggle for civil rights, something completely dishonest. The IRA had a strategy of making the 6 counties ungovernable, they did this with a mandate of no more than 10% of the population. You will of course bring up the battle of the bogside and the loyalist pogroms but one can hardly equate the self defense of areas with the planting of 500lb bombs in city centres, no?

 

[Chorlton]

listen gobshit,

revol..... stop bein a dick.