It also means a vehicle that has passed that emission test at it last MOT, the result of which is filed on the DVLA database which the system used for congestion charges in London refers to.
Low Emission Zone (London)
- Thread starter Dan U
- Start date
It also means a vehicle that has passed that emission test at it last MOT, the result of which is filed on the DVLA database which the system used for congestion charges in London refers to.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Correct.
I'm not sure we are arguing over much, but I do think there is a case for being a bit more leinent for privately owned vans and motorcaravans (perhaps Euro II which means 1997 and on)
It does strike me as slightly unfair that people who live in outer London won't be able to own a motorcaravan unless they can afford a fairly new one (OK not the end of the world but still unfair), and there is certainly an issue with vans used by artists and musicians most of whom have fairly old vans.
exactly my point really.
it's quite a lot more money for a post 2002 vehicle.
like £'000s
editor
hiraethified
The only bit I like is the flag.
The level of the charge suggests it's very clearly aimed at commerical organisations with fleets of HGVs and expensive enough to make it economically preferable to pay for the conversions or upgrade the fleet.
Personally I think somethings gone a bit awry if it's hitting private vehicles.
I've got a 1996 Transit minibus which will be caught by this in 2010 - if I still have it.
I don't know yet if it can be modified for a reasonable cost.
It doesn't "spew filthy fumes" - it is regularly serviced etc.
But it does seem that the new rules will make it virtually impossible for pre-2002 vehicles to comply, whatever you do to them.
If it was just a question of keeping your van / bus / camper in correct tune, then fine - I don't like to see any vehicle chucking out clouds of pollution.
But if it effectively says "anything older than 9 years or so is effectively banned" then I think it could be harsh on people with live-in vans / coaches, or who simply cannot afford a newer vehicle.
Giles..
I don't know yet if it can be modified for a reasonable cost.
It doesn't "spew filthy fumes" - it is regularly serviced etc.
But it does seem that the new rules will make it virtually impossible for pre-2002 vehicles to comply, whatever you do to them.
If it was just a question of keeping your van / bus / camper in correct tune, then fine - I don't like to see any vehicle chucking out clouds of pollution.
But if it effectively says "anything older than 9 years or so is effectively banned" then I think it could be harsh on people with live-in vans / coaches, or who simply cannot afford a newer vehicle.
Giles..
<e2a> Imagine Fred Dibnah's comments on having to pay £200 quid to drive his into London...
Not covered by the legislation, (The London to Brighton rally won't be either.)
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
http://www.cdti.com/lez/healthcheck.html claim to offer systems that comply for under £500. Personally I think you'd be better with a vehicle under 3.5 tonnes, because come 2012, the standard for vehicles over 3.5 tonnes rises again to Euro IV, and that's very hard to hit.
At least with a 3.5 tonner you get a couple of years grace, then you need to hit Euro III. Try to get a post 1997 vehicle which should be easier to convert to Euro III
Oh and enjoy motorcaravaning
At least with a 3.5 tonner you get a couple of years grace, then you need to hit Euro III. Try to get a post 1997 vehicle which should be easier to convert to Euro III
Oh and enjoy motorcaravaning
It's not "Ken" doing it.
There are now EU wide rules that limit the number of days per year that the air is allowed to contain X parts per million of particulates. So local authorities all over Europe are introducing rules and payment zones and transit bans and total bans to get the worst polluting vehicles off the roads.
If they don't the dirty old belchers for the sake of everyone's health, multi million pound fines from Brussels will start a rolling onto your council tax bill.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Here, for the hardcore geeks only
, is the LEZ for Berlin (in fairly well translated English) http://www.lowemissionzones.eu/images/stories/dpf_files/berlin umweltzone_broschuere_en.pdfLooks like the (unfair) threat to fine people with pre 1997 camper vans, small vans and minibuses has been lifted:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7866967.stm
This is good news for me, because my van being made in 1996, could not meet the new rules without the expenditure of more money than would be worth spending, and it would have the unpleasant side-effect of destroying the value of the vehicle if I wanted to sell it.
I was just going to keep driving it anyway, but this change will hopefully mean I won't get hassle from the powers that be or have to resort to lying and cheating as I had planned to.
Cheers Boris!
Giles..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7866967.stm
This is good news for me, because my van being made in 1996, could not meet the new rules without the expenditure of more money than would be worth spending, and it would have the unpleasant side-effect of destroying the value of the vehicle if I wanted to sell it.
I was just going to keep driving it anyway, but this change will hopefully mean I won't get hassle from the powers that be or have to resort to lying and cheating as I had planned to.
Cheers Boris!
Giles..
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
FYI, Giles, it's all pre 2002 campers that would have been affected. Some 1997-2002 vehicles could have been converted (at a price), most before that could not.
For those who aren't in the know, motorcaravans tend to be a 'once-in-a-lifetime' purchase (often by working or lower-middle class people who have a windfall or inheritance), and have lifespans of 20-30 years plus.
For those who aren't in the know, motorcaravans tend to be a 'once-in-a-lifetime' purchase (often by working or lower-middle class people who have a windfall or inheritance), and have lifespans of 20-30 years plus.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Oh and on the wider emissions point, I think the recession is going to be bad news for London's air quality. Companies are going to hang on to older vans, charities will have less coming in for new minibuses and private motorists may skimp on servicing their diesel cars to save a few quid.
There is a whole wider debate to be had about whether economic growth is good or bad for the environment, but on the issues of diesel vehicles, there is no doubt newer vehicles, regularly serviced, emit *massively* less particulate.
There is a whole wider debate to be had about whether economic growth is good or bad for the environment, but on the issues of diesel vehicles, there is no doubt newer vehicles, regularly serviced, emit *massively* less particulate.
On the other hand, a recession usually means less driving and less vehicles overall, doesn't it?
If I can modify my bus for a few hundred quid, I would happily do it.
But people were talking about having to spend £2K to do this, and I can't afford or justify this. Its almost more than its worth.
Giles..
han
love is the answer
I'm a member of the Greenparty, and passionately believe in most of what they stand for, but on this point I have to say I agree with Boris (and not only because I have a campervan that falls into the LEZ category).
There are loads and loads and loads of people who have a campervan that the use only occasionally. To charge people £200 a day to drive it, when they may only use the thing once a month, is outrageous - especially when many of these people are extremely environmentally conscious and don't drive cars the rest of the time.
I for one only use our van once every 3-4 weeks, or in the summer every 2 weeks. We have no other vehicle, and we cycle and use public transport for every other journey. For people like us, who actually have a tiny carbon footprint, the LEZ thing would've been disproportionally punitive and would've meant we would have to sell the van.
I think it would've been better if Boris could've done this in a way which somehow charged people according to yearly mileage or something (I'd be happy to pay according to mileage as we drive such a tiny amount). Clearly delivery drivers etc. will have loads of miles daily that will be polluting, and that is a bad thing - something needs to be done about it.
But for your low-mileage campervan driver, this is absolutely the right thing, so thankyou Boris (please sort something else out to penalise people who drive vans all day every day though!).
There are loads and loads and loads of people who have a campervan that the use only occasionally. To charge people £200 a day to drive it, when they may only use the thing once a month, is outrageous - especially when many of these people are extremely environmentally conscious and don't drive cars the rest of the time.
I for one only use our van once every 3-4 weeks, or in the summer every 2 weeks. We have no other vehicle, and we cycle and use public transport for every other journey. For people like us, who actually have a tiny carbon footprint, the LEZ thing would've been disproportionally punitive and would've meant we would have to sell the van.
I think it would've been better if Boris could've done this in a way which somehow charged people according to yearly mileage or something (I'd be happy to pay according to mileage as we drive such a tiny amount). Clearly delivery drivers etc. will have loads of miles daily that will be polluting, and that is a bad thing - something needs to be done about it.
But for your low-mileage campervan driver, this is absolutely the right thing, so thankyou Boris (please sort something else out to penalise people who drive vans all day every day though!).
christonabike
Elm Park Bencher
Good news for me and my Bongo (1995 2.5 diesel)
I was ready to get it converted/filter put on it, but have been quoted £500-£3500. That didn't fill me with confidence that it wasn't a scam, and you had to pay to get it tested for emissions every year. I hadn't got around to finding out if they guaranteed it to pass and for how many years
I was also looking into getting a petrol version, but as someone earlier said, these things are usually one-off purchases. It was my first ever vehicle buy ever (aged 40) and it feels like "ours" and is well looked after, and not driven around London
I was ready to get it converted/filter put on it, but have been quoted £500-£3500. That didn't fill me with confidence that it wasn't a scam, and you had to pay to get it tested for emissions every year. I hadn't got around to finding out if they guaranteed it to pass and for how many years
I was also looking into getting a petrol version, but as someone earlier said, these things are usually one-off purchases. It was my first ever vehicle buy ever (aged 40) and it feels like "ours" and is well looked after, and not driven around London
They should just stick to progressive improvements in emissions standards for new vehicles and let them work through the nations "fleet" over the next few years. It doesn't take that long - most mileage is driven by newer vehicles anyway.
It is a key principle - almost always adhered to - in the UK at least.
When you buy a car (or van) if it meets all the safety & emissions laws in force at that time, it should then be legal forever, provided you keep it in good running order.
All cars since a certain date had to have catalytic converters - but they never made people go out and retro-fit them on older cars.
Imposing retrospective laws on existing owners is unfair in principle, and tends to hit those with less money by imposing large costs on less well off owners of older vehicles.
Giles..
It is a key principle - almost always adhered to - in the UK at least.
When you buy a car (or van) if it meets all the safety & emissions laws in force at that time, it should then be legal forever, provided you keep it in good running order.
All cars since a certain date had to have catalytic converters - but they never made people go out and retro-fit them on older cars.
Imposing retrospective laws on existing owners is unfair in principle, and tends to hit those with less money by imposing large costs on less well off owners of older vehicles.
Giles..
fredfelt
Mostly unknown member
In theory yes, but there is more and more evidence linking traffic fumes to heart trouble. A summary of the recent papers can be found here:
http://www.heartzine.com/754-Multiple-Studies-Link-Traffic-Fumes-to-Heart-Trouble.html
As a result of this new knowledge there is more pressure to protect people's health from traffic fumes.
Giles, I do agree with you - retrospective laws on existing owners is unfair in principle. However, as well as owning older vehicles those with less money will typically live next to busier roads. So we can turn your argument on it's head - to protect those with less money we should bring in tougher air quality laws
But the camper vans, older minibuses etc make up a very small fraction of the total emissions. And would be hard hit by this change, which is why I'm glad they scrapped it.
If they hadn't, and it wasn't possible at reasonable cost to modify my bus, what could I do?
I live within London.
I would have had to lie and cheat to continue to use my own vehicle. Selling it would have been hard given that it would no longer be legal to use within the M25.
Giles..
If they hadn't, and it wasn't possible at reasonable cost to modify my bus, what could I do?
I live within London.
I would have had to lie and cheat to continue to use my own vehicle. Selling it would have been hard given that it would no longer be legal to use within the M25.
Giles..
citydreams
on the road again
.TfL said:
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Simple answer- No, they aren't.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Many thanks, thats a relief!
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
I just found out about the LEZ after I drove to see my ma in London in my vw T4 I'm gob smacked, that I can never drive to London in it, specially as I'm going to a gig there in August and was going to then drive to Sussex. Looks like I shall have to park in Windsor or Slough and get the train in and out again. I understand why it's been done, just shocked I knew nothing about it but I guess I did not have to previously with ma lickle hatchback.
Also if I'd known I would have tried to buy something a couple of years younger! boo!
I'm gob smacked, that I can never drive to London in it, specially as I'm going to a gig there in August and was going to then drive to Sussex. Looks like I shall have to park in Windsor or Slough and get the train in and out again. I understand why it's been done, just shocked I knew nothing about it but I guess I did not have to previously with ma lickle hatchback.Also if I'd known I would have tried to buy something a couple of years younger! boo!
not-bono-ever
meh
^^^ I was on the verge of buying a shitty ole transit from linconlshire to try to get to antiques / collectors fairs wif me posters - forgot all about this until the last minute . seller not happy
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
And skint anarchists!
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