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Lovelock's Gaia Theory vs. Neo-Darwinism?

Bernie Gunther said:
It would seem then that the reason evolutionary biologists might want to get interested in this is that they'd want to as why those bacteria evolved to behave in that way. It's not immediately obvious how selection would favour this behaviour.

Oh, right! I'm beginning to understand why people are using the word "altruism!"

Because the bacteria, to anthropomorphise them again, seem to be acting in a way that is not "in their self-interest," but in the "interest" of planetry self-regulation?
 
Given that ( see above post )

Choosing to see the bacteria as acting either "in their own intrest" or acting "in the planet's interest" gives you the grounds for a lively debate within science evidently, and for all of those fellow travellers wishing to apply the metaphor's these bring; but, stepping outside of Science for a minute it strikes me there is enough common ground.

I say this, because I'm still struggling to come to terms with the polemic in John Gray's "Straw Dogs" ( my Book of the Year :) ) which seems to absorb and use both theories unproblematically...

Maybe accepting evolutionary mechanisms per se, whatever their specific cause and effect, as a way of redefining the place of man on the planet that provides more common ground than not.
 
Actually, I can see how that works. When it's hot, the bacteria that go faster reproduce faster. The ones who slow down when it's hot are disfavoured. The interesting thing is that although regulating planetary temperature is not what those bacteria are selecting for, it happens as an emergent property of the system. What may cause confusion is an expectation that that property is what's being selected for, but that's not the case. It just so happens that the property that is being selected for acts to regulate planetary temperature as a secondary consequence.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Actually, I can see how that works. When it's hot, the bacteria that go faster reproduce faster. The ones who slow down when it's hot are disfavoured. The interesting thing is that although regulating planetary temperature is not what those bacteria are selecting for, it happens as an emergent property of the system. What may cause confusion is an expectation that that property is what's being selected for, but that's not the case. It just so happens that the property that is being selected for acts to regulate planetary temperature as a secondary consequence.

"Weak" Gaia:p
( I think. )
I think "Strong" Gaia would have the planetary as a whole acting as an agency on itself own behalf. I don't think there is anything accidental or secondary about the idea of planet-as-organism is acting on its own behalf. I think Lvks point is that the casuality becomes confused when you try to see the total system as a collection of little fragmented systems and different agencies ( the bacteria. ) In this sense there is no "just so happens..." Its a failure on the part of the observer to see the wider whole.

I could be wrong. I'd like to know.
 
Here's Lvlk ( p17 new book )

" Unless we see the Earth as a planet that behaves as if it were alive, at least to the extent of regulate its climate and chemistry, we will lack the will to change our way of life and to understand we have made it our greatest enemy."

It strikes me this can mean, "unless we believe something ( some necessary myth ) A necessary good - saving the planet - won't happen."

In this case, I can see the scientific objections, because Lvlck is using Gaia polemically rather than offering it as watertight science - whatever that is.

None the less, by identifying agency as not the the subjective fact of the individual organism, species, 'ambitious' dna but the objective totality of planetary whole acting in itself own intrests to regulate itself, at times out of sync with the darwinian narratives Lvlk is doing something that has a philosophical pedigree which is recognisable.

In the last century Marx demonstrated that the "autonomous" agencies of the law and parliament, while appearing to work in the interests of "justice" and "democracy" at root served the interests of Capital. Freud demonstrated that human motivation was complex, that people were motivated by perverse interests that only seemed of benefit them in larger, incomprehensible, ways. Nietzche showed the roots of much of Christian thought as a spiteful and violent aggressivity that turns in on natural process and seeks to nuture it.

When Dawkins came along in the 90s and said, no, no - all these ( basically modernist narratives ) were wrong; that the true agency was not in productive labour, our erotic life or our life as natural sensuous beings but in the struggle for genetic dominance it always seemed too neat a fit with the prevailing ideology of the times - reactionary - to be in any deep sense true or useful.

In this sense, I guess you can read the Lovelock/Hawkins debate as yet another instance of where one thinker begins with the isolated subject and the other with the totality.

I was saying on this BB a month or so ago that I can't anymore believe the ego is as it appears to be; autonomous, transparent, clear in its motivation and a sufficient objective fact for itself. And, it strikes me, if you set out from this point - or if this is your experience of yourself, the world, the way things are - its not too much of a conceptual leap to understand the real processes occuring at the level of totality.

In a way Marx, Freud, Nietzche paved the way for this, as they all deconstruct the ideas of closed systems and uncomplicated causalities. They all show that "self-interest" is extremely hard to identify and isolate and define. Systems overlap.

Dawkins and Lvlck share the idea of biological agency, a naturalism that seems to be part of a consensus of our times and true to me at least. That Life precedes and drives the ( human ) subjects that live it; that Life can drive us to sacrifice ourselves for the benefit of our young seems to me to be part of a contuning displacement of Cartesian Western subjectivity that you can see, for example, in Foucault's "Les Mots et les Choses."

He says there, rather prophetically imho, that "man" - as the autonomous subject of first recourse, has only been around since the Renaissance, when he was, first "invented."

The forces; natural, economic, ecological, ideological, erotic - of our age, seem to me to be conspiring in any number or directions to do exactly as Foucault proposed - to "erase the subject man, like a drawing drawn in the sand by the sea."

Bracketing the political, there's more that unites than divides thinkers who recognise this effacing - and work towards integrating it with a greater respect for the totality of life and our interdependancy with other beings.

What is difficult is to try and convince ourselves how true this is and not simply how necessary.
 
Sid's Snake said:
Actually, I read the other one, "Gaia's Gift," a couple of weeks ago. Thoroughly enjoyed it. ( But I can't remember that much about it. )
Thats me and every book, film and day I've ever experienced! :)
 
Jonti said:
And maybe phildwyer should pillage Milton to support his money => supernatural deity argument ... :D

MAMMON led them on,
MAMMON, the least erected Spirit that fell
From heav'n, for ev'n in heav'n his looks & thoughts
Were always downward bent, admiring more
The riches of Heav'ns pavement, trod'n Gold,
Then aught divine or holy else enjoy'd
In vision beatific: by him first
Men also, and by his suggestion taught,
Ransack'd the Center, and with impious hands
Rifl'd the bowels of thir mother Earth
For Treasures better hid. Soon had his crew
Op'nd into the Hill a spacious wound
And dig'd out ribs of Gold. Let none admire
That riches grow in Hell; that soyle may best
Deserve the pretious bane.*​

But seriously, I've never been able to read Leviathan. What's this about Dawkins pillages Hobbes?


Paradise Lost, Book 1, lines 678 etc

Of course Milton saw the nature of money very clearly--note how he presents it as above all an *unnatural* phenomenon. Money is in fact the systematic imposition of *nomos* on *phusis,* and thus incarnates the principle of violating nature. Hence Milton's description of Mammon, although I didn't have you figured as a Miltonist, I must admit. Anyway, Dawkins pillages Hobbes in his absurd view that selfishness is a natural condition. Interesting thread, I hope it keeps going.
 
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