Lord Haw Haw reborn........

[Spion]

agreed with you on this spion ..

*high fives durruti*

 

[fogbat]

Joyce was a cunt and you're a fucking idiot.

No arguments on either of those points, but Galloway's a cunt, too.

 

[untethered]

I wouldn't like there to be a global system of human rights, it is a legal fact that there is a global system of human rights. Of course many states stray from their human rights pledges, and in so doing receive demands for their domestic legislation to be altered (a system which your words implied did not exist). International human rights law is a creature that is still very much evolving. But this doesn't change the fact that people have human rights, legally, politically, and philosophically, and that the standards of a community and a nation can be judged.

Which you denied.

Do all countries adopt these standards? Do all people have these rights?

I think it's reasonable to expect a global system of human rights to be universally enacted (which it isn't) and enforced (which it is even less).

Surely the whole point of this thread is that many people don't have the rights which you think they should expect. How, then, is this a global system of human rights in anything but name?

 

[Spion]

Ah, but they're not rules handed down from above.

They're community standards which come up from below. In my community, the take-up of that proposal was universal.

Universal? So who put the signs up in the first place? Someone not from your community? And am I supposed to support racism just because it 'comes from below'?

I notive you're not providing any rationale for your boycott of foreign-born shopkeepers, btw

Or are you suggesting that there should be a petty rule that people must display foreign-language signs? That'd be nearer the truth in many contexts.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm saying people shouldn't be barred from practicing their language, culture etc

 

[durruti02]

*high fives durruti*

and to you!

 

[untethered]

Universal? So who put the signs up in the first place? Someone not from your community? And am I supposed to support racism just because it 'comes from below'?

I'm sorry, but how is that racism? What kind of "racism" prompts a shopkeeper to voluntarily take down a sign in Polish that he put there himself?

I notive you're not providing any rationale for your boycott of foreign-born shopkeepers, btw

It's not foreign-born shopkeepers. It's non-British shopkeepers.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm saying people shouldn't be barred from practicing their language, culture etc

And indeed they are not, so everything's happy.

 

[audiotech]

No arguments on either of those points, but Galloway's a cunt, too.

Rula Lenska, remarked that George has kind eyes.

 

[fogbat]

Rula Lenska, remarked that George has kind eyes.

*retracts previous argument*

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Can somebody provide links to:

a) the case of the guy who was hung in Iran, specifically what he was hung for
b) the law on homosexuality in Iran

I don't trust KBJ any more than I trust Galloway so it'd be nice to get some verifiable facts before discussing this

If you check the harrysplace blog there are links on there.

 

[audiotech]

*high fives durruti*

Don't trust the troll durrutti.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Lord Haw Haw?

Are you seriously comparing George Galloway to William Joyce, a propagandist for the Nazi's who was later hanged for treason?

He's a similar sort of traitor and he's becoming more and more a propagandist for some disgusting fascistic regimes like Iran.

 

[jæd]

It's not, really. Wikipedia is worth shit as evidence tho

Even when it cites links to other websites, and includes direct quotes from Iranian MPs...?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

William Joyce probably at least had some principles, twisted though they were...

Good point you can't really accuse Galloway of having principles can you.

Galloway's principles begin and end at his wallet and his ego.

 

[jæd]

Where I come from it's generally incumbent upon people to follow the law and community standards. If this chap does indeed face a threat based on his actions, perhaps he should have been more circumspect about them before he acted.

On the other hand, I don't see how executing him will improve matters.

So what... Should this guy have gone and got married to some woman to hide who he really was...? Or perhaps you'd like him to sign up to the state sanctioned trans-gender program and had his bits cut-off...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Joyce was a cunt and you're a fucking idiot.

Fogbat did say that Joyce's principles were twisted. And I know that Joyce was a low life.

 

[jæd]

S'funny, only the other week you were saying how you boycott foreign-born shop owners and ask for foreign language signs to be taken out of shop windows

Heh... A while back he was saying people of south-east asian apperance had slitty eyes...

 

[audiotech]

He's a similar sort of traitor and he's becoming more and more a propagandist for some disgusting fascistic regimes like Iran.

Galloway's on record as being totally opposed to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regime in Iran.

Your smears, don't change that.

 

[purves grundy]

Do all countries adopt these standards? Do all people have these rights?

I think it's reasonable to expect a global system of human rights to be universally enacted (which it isn't) and enforced (which it is even less).

Surely the whole point of this thread is that many people don't have the rights which you think they should expect. How, then, is this a global system of human rights in anything but name?

Yes, all humans have human rights because they're human. You're confusing the enforcement of these rights with their possession. When the Burmese government imprison and torture my friend because he has said something the state disagrees with, his rights to freedom from torture, freedom of speech etc have been violated even though you won't find these rights on the Burmese statute books. What other discourse could you use to articulate the wrongs done to him?

There is not a single country that respects, protects and fulfills all human rights, but that doesn't mean that these rights do not exist. It gives us an objective benchmark to be struggled to attain.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I'm sorry, but how is that racism? What kind of "racism" prompts a shopkeeper to voluntarily take down a sign in Polish that he put there himself?

A visit from some low life meatheads with baseball bats in my experience

Do you not consider that the local fash nutters might have paid him a visit and told him to take down the sign?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Galloway's on record as being totally opposed to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regime in Iran.

Your smears, don't change that.

So why is he trying to gloss over this execution of a gay man in Iran then?

Whats his agenda? Has he got an eye on a nice little earner from Irans petrodollars?

I don't trust anything that comes out of Galloways mouth. Galloway is about as reliable as the Sun newspaper.

 

[untethered]

Yes, all humans have human rights because they're human. You're confusing the enforcement of these rights with their possession. When the Burmese government imprison and torture my friend because he has said something the state disagrees with, his rights to freedom from torture, freedom of speech etc have been violated even though you won't find these rights on the Burmese statute books. What other discourse could you use to articulate the wrongs done to him?

The discourse of morality, perhaps? Philosophy? Politics? Religion?

It's notable that international human rights standards don't proscribe the death penalty, which most human rights advocates would consider to be the cornerstone of individual rights. Why do you think that is?

There is not a single country that respects, protects and fulfills all human rights, but that doesn't mean that these rights do not exist. It gives us an objective benchmark to be struggled to attain.

By all means struggle to attain what you think is worthwhile. But rights derive from power and without power your supposed rights are fictions and fantasies.

 

[audiotech]

Fogbat did say that Joyce's principles were twisted.

Fogbat did say that, but saying that Joyce had at least some 'twisted principles' and by innuendo meaning that somehow Galloway has none is patent nonsense.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Fogbat did say that, but saying that Joyce had at least some 'twisted principles' and by innuendo meaning that somehow Galloway has none is patent nonsense.

I don't think Galloway has any principles other than what benefits himself.

 

[untethered]

So what... Should this guy have gone and got married to some woman to hide who he really was...? Or perhaps you'd like him to sign up to the state sanctioned trans-gender program and had his bits cut-off...

I'm just suggesting that people should consider the matter carefully before they go and break domestic laws which are likely to get themselves executed.

 

[purves grundy]

The discourse of morality, perhaps? Philosophy? Politics? Religion?

It's notable that international human rights standards don't proscribe the death penalty, which most human rights advocates would consider to be the cornerstone of individual rights. Why do you think that is?



By all means struggle to attain what you think is worthwhile. But rights derive from power and without power your supposed rights are fictions and fantasies.

The wrongs done in the name of philosophy, politics and religion are precisely why the international human rights regime has been created.

I don't know any HR advocates who believe any particular human right to be the cornerstone of 'human rights'. They don't appear in order of importance in treaties, y'know.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by rights derive from power. They are destroyed by power, the worldwide push for the realisation of human rights began because of the horrors of state power. They are conceived by philosophers, framed by lawyers, and enacted by politicians. They are constructs, but so are five pound notes.

 

[untethered]

Do you not consider that the local fash nutters might have paid him a visit and told him to take down the sign?

There are no "fash nutters" in my neighbourhood. We don't even have BNP candidates in our elections.

The signs came down after a substantive debate in which there emerged a consensus that the best way forward would be for our community to emphasise its commonalities rather than its difference. An adherence to the exclusive use of English for signage and public documents/displays was one element of that.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The wrongs done in the name of philosophy, politics and religion are precisely why the international human rights regime has been created.

I don't know any HR advocates who believe any particular human right to be the cornerstone of 'human rights'. They don't appear in order of importance in treaties, y'know.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by rights derive from power. They are destroyed by power, the worldwide push for the realisation of human rights began because of the horrors of state power. They are conceived by philosophers, framed by lawyers, and enacted by politicians. They are constructs, but so are five pound notes.

Very good points. To put my arms control hat on universal human rights have affected to a very positive effect on arms controls.

Although we had export controls since Elizabethan times in some form and up until 2003 we were still using the emergency 1939 Customs Powers (Defence) Act to govern strategic exports there was no real scope outside of EU export control legislation that the UK govt voluntarily signed up to, to make provisions for human rights specifically in things such as export licences or trafficking and brokering arms deals. Human rights regs have given us the EU Torture Equipment directive that forbids the export of gas chambers lethal injection equipment, gallows, electro torture equipment, leg irons and handcuffs bigger than 260mm. That is a huge achievement.

International Universal Human Rights have had such a fabulous effect on what is sold and what is not - shame the fucking Chinese don't play ball as much as they should.

Although I personally seethe with anger when I see dodgy lawyers getting their equally dodgy and sometimes violent clients out of the arms of justice I know that human rights legislation isn't just that. I just wish that there was more publicity for the good things that HR legislaiton has done and not just the shit bits.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

There are no "fash nutters" in my neighbourhood. We don't even have BNP candidates in our elections.

The signs came down after a substantive debate in which there emerged a consensus that the best way forward would be for our community to emphasise its commonalities rather than its difference. An adherence to the exclusive use of English for signage and public documents/displays was one element of that.

So these locals (just because you dont' have a bnp candidate doesn't mean that a lot of bigots won't start shouting) would they have been amenable to dual language signs or was it just the sight of Polish language that got them all frothing?

 

[untethered]

So these locals (just because you dont' have a bnp candidate doesn't mean that a lot of bigots won't start shouting) would they have been amenable to dual language signs or was it just the sight of Polish language that got them all frothing?

There are no bigots involved. They are all fair-minded and civilised people.

I don't see how dual-language signs could be anything other than a step backwards.

 

[audiotech]

So why is he trying to gloss over this execution of a gay man in Iran then?

Whats his agenda? Has he got an eye on a nice little earner from Irans petrodollars?

I don't trust anything that comes out of Galloways mouth. Galloway is about as reliable as the Sun newspaper.

Galloway was saying that all the papers seem to imply that people get executed in Iran for being gay, has it appears that some Peers in the House of Lords do. Galloway stated that this is not true. He went on to say that he is against the death penalty for any crime.

On that clip there is also some discussion about supposed "sex crimes" carried out by a boyfriend of the gay Iranian being threatened with deportation and Galloway believing that this was the reason this man was executed, and not because he was a homosexual. I know nothing about these "sex crimes". Maybe Galloway does?

Nevertheless, Galloway is clear, no to the deportation of this man and no to the death penalty for any crimes.

I would think that Galloway's agenda is to try and put over a more clearer picture of Iran and it's people, in comparison say to the distortions that we hear from papers like the Sun, or the war propaganda from the Bush regime?