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Looking forward to seeing Bin Laden in a bodybag

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These right wing Americans seem to have spread to every website forum recently. They first appeared in this country on thesite's forum about 8 months ago and have since spread to many other forums, even handbag.com's forum has them now I have noticed.
 
Blooming nice post Well Red! :)

edited to add

that anthrax comment was bloody bad taste tho ;)

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]
 
Redneck-itis seems to be not unrelated to the recent outbreak of Anthrax.

Could they by any chance have something in common?

Or am I making a RASH assumption?

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
well red, finally, well argued post with good spelling. Merry Christmas. ;) I don't agree with you, but I always appreciate some effort. :)

edited to add:

How's the shite manufacturing business going?

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: otto ]
 
This Canadian is a genius. Insightful, funny, original, right. What more could you ask for in an editorialist? :p
 
D, thanks for the political rag scorecard. Well researched. I agree with your assessments of their various leanings. Gracias.

Martin Peretz is Al Gore's mentor and obviously has Democratic leanings. This accounts for the magazines generally liberal tone. He's also Jewish, which would account for his harder-line middle east views. (I'm not getting ethnic here, just connecting the dots.) With regular contributors who do or have written for The American Prospect, Slate, and Mother Jones, (I'm taking your word for this), there is no question that generally TNR is only a little less left than NR is right. All they need is a few Progressive writers to go the full nine. But they occasionally have editorial that actually makes good sense, hence my pleasant surprise to see the Peter Beinart piece there.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: otto ]
 
The suggestion that Capitalism is part of human nature is the height of stupidity
...and ahistorical. No-one on the left would deny that capitalism isn't an advance on feudalism. Part of the discussion therefore is whether you can, as someone did, characterise Afghanistan as feudal. If it is then the kind of constructive engagement that D says is being discussed could be seen as positive (though in what circles I'd love to know - I've not heard anything like that from any gov.t/mainstream media sources). However, you could also argue that the triumph of global capitalism has ended feudalism, and the 'backwaters' are merely, and horrifically, that - ie neglected, squalid remains drained by larger powers and corporations.

The article Otto just posted contains little of substance, an example here:

In some weird Orwellian boomerang, the degradation of language required to advance the left's agenda has rendered its proponents utterly desiccated. The President gets teary in the Oval Office, the Queen chokes up at St. Paul's, David Letterman and Dan Rather sob on CBS, New Yorkers weep openly for their slain fireman, but the dead-eyed zombies of the peace movement who claim to love everyone parade through the streets unmoved, a breed apart.
Just so many cocoanuts, then?

Thanx D for the media over-view. I can see how The New Repblic can't be neatly summarised or pidgeonholed.

From Steelgate,
These right wing Americans seem to have spread to every website forum recently.

I think Otto proves that ALICE has been won and his creators should be given the gold medal. In addition, the prevalence of differing identities, the ability to appear to respond to other posters on a range of sites suggests an extension of web-crawler software.

Perhaps a nu-Alice competition. Instead of 10 humans testing 10 computer-generated AI machines, they're using the boards. However annoyed, posters are assuming Otto's a human.

Embedded within my little theory, is the belief that it is no accident that AI developers have chosen a red-neck conservative viewpoint - it is monolithic (none of those self-doubting of liberals, none of the complexity of the left, none of the uniqueness of mavericks like PCS or pk), it 'argues' by assertion, it only has to pay lip-service to the idea of debate, it's a simplistic, emotionalist, but cliche-ridden point of view that would therefore be much easier to program. Otto even sounds like the kind of acronym a bunch of CalTech geeks would come up with, along with a simplistic troll-like sense of humour.

The only problem I have with my own theory is that no computer could come out with the line:

"I am the diversity"

unless it was bent on world domination. Er... :(

The serious point, is that there is some real debate going on around and inspite of the war-mongers. Why don't we just concentrate on that?
 
Gee Whizz Otto,

Do you quote any sources that aren't North American? Like that live in the real world? Like that might travel out into the world occasionally, just so they can actually relate facts?

C'mon Mr Links-Man. Lets see you quoting Arab and Chinese and Afghan and Pakistani sources on this issue. Just so we can see you are truly interested in a wide debate.

Seems like you're not using google.com hard enough.....
 
Seems like he travels Google with good ol' made in the US of A "NarrowMind Blinkers" INC.

Otto, if you'd ever been to the Middle East, which I can't presume you haven't, but judging by your completely naive and self assured tone it seems you've not left your sofa for ten years, you'd know that the USA is treated like any other country, often with contempt, but never, ever the be all and end all of everything. Your romantic notions of "God's Own Country" are sickening to me and many others here. As D said, if you don't enjoy the discourse you find here on U75, there is a simple solution to your quandry.

Simply fuck off.
 
:) :) /\ /\ /\

I'm just glad it's me that's going to Jordan and not you Otto, you'd be a one man cause of a "hate America" revolution there, and it's one of the less unstable countries in that region.
 
I almost went to Uzbekistan for a month.
I'd have had to leave almost immediately.
Just found out I'm not going now. Mixture of relief and sadness.
Life changing experience, and the money was fucking amazing as you'd expect.

In sh'allah.
 
"He's also Jewish, which would account for his harder-line middle east views."

Is it worth pointing out that you neither have to be Jewish to be a Zionist, nor a Zionist if you're Jewish? Probably not, he's not listening anyway.

Ooh, PK, you would have loved Uzbekistan, you know, it's great. Tashkent's a fucking polluted nightmare, but very rearding. Tho you probably would have been in the last interesting bits down south.
 
Yeah, it's a fucker, I psyched myself up to go, then got told I was too late. They needed an instant decision.

Besides, I'd have missed the party!

I would have been in the south, near the Afghan border, working with people in and out of Mazir-el-Sharif. Dream ticket mate.
 
this is from the article otto mentioned earlier:

On that sunny Tuesday morning, at least 7,000 people died -- real, living men and women and children with families and street addresses and telephone numbers. But the language of the pacifists -- for all its ostensible compassion -- dehumanizes these individuals. They're no longer flight attendants and firemen and waitresses and bond dealers, but only an abstract blur in some theoretical equation -- if not mere "collateral damage," certainly collateral.


Again there's the bizarre idea that by talking about possible underlying issues means that there's no empathy with the pain and suffering of the people killed in the attack.

If their suffering has become abstract, it may be because we all suffer from 'compassion fatigue' due to being concerned about mass civilian deaths before September 11, in other parts of the globe. After all the term collateral damage was a term first used during the gulf war, during which many people felt empathy with the victims, especially during what appeared to be a massacre at the end.

Maybe being cold about suffering everywhere (this is different to not caring about, or not responding to, or not trying to find solutions to ) is a rational way to exist at the moment...
 
Yes,

I don't see any of those whining rednecks condemning the Afghan lives lost in the American attacks. Are Afghans not people too? Don't thay have names? Don't they have identities?

And then we're all supposed to 'fall into line' and show our sympathies and condemn what happened at the WTC. And if we don't, we're somehow 'anti-American' as if that label meant anything. As if whining, whingeing, uppity rednecks are some sort-of latter day McCarthy.

I challenge them to condemn the American killings of the 4 UN personnel unreservedly, and unconditionally, as well as the 100 or so innocent Afghans that have been killed by American bombs.

And seeing as Otto is so fond of quoting other people, so will I:

"In Amman and Baghdad people marvel that westerners do not recall the destructive colonial legacy their forebears bequeathed, do not understand the damage that dysfunctional relationship still does now, and blunder on to repeat the mistakes of the past. They wonder why, and how, the execrable violence visited upon New York is somehow deemed less illegitimate when turned against Arabs in Gaza or Sudan or Iraq."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,567279,00.html

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
Otto - I can't quite work out if you've wilfully misconstrued my previous post or you're just plain stupid (though I'd hedge my bets on the latter if push came to shove). Pacificism is a human sentiment which extends far beyond the 'western cultural concepts' into which you arrogantly pigeon-hole my beliefs. 'Non-violence is the first article of my faith. It is also the last article of my creed.' Gandhi's words were not framed by 'western cultural concepts' but by a genuine belief that violent means only produce violent ends, a belief borne out by the carnage, destruction, bitterness and hatred which have been caused by war in the half century since his death. If you can come back to me in 6 months confident in yourself that the aggressive actions which you support have produced anything but a deepening of the suffering of the Afghan people, a consolidation and extension of the hatred felt towards the West by many in the Arab world and an assurance that the threat of terrorist attack will continue to blight all of our lives then I'll be more than willing to accept that I was misguided in my beliefs. But do you really believe that a genuinely democratic, just regime will be put in place in Afghanistan by pulverising the nation and displacing most of its population? Do you really think that terrorism will just wither away and disappear because America has acted with awesome predicatability and waded into Afhganistan like a punch-drunk John Wayne when the real terrorists had long since skulked away and were carefully planning their response to an action which they had already calculated would occur?
Pacifism in reaction to the current events given their nature becomes a logical as well as an emotional response.
Emotionally the death of innocent civilians in a conflict which they neither asked for, played a part in or understand is unacceptable. This is not a smug or an ignorant viewpoint as you claimed. Sitting casually miles from the conflict pontificating on how everyone should obediently accept a show of overwhelming, brute force is however genuinely smug, glib and unendearing. Sigfreid Sassoon commented after his experience of conflict in WWI how much more belligerent and blood-thirsty were those who sat thousands of miles away from the battlefields and had no real experience or understanding of the realities of war and the pain and horror it causes. Those who had like himself, were a damn sight less gung-ho about it. Have you so little human empathy and warmth that the thought of the fear and worry for ordinary Afghan people caused by the mere threat of bombing disturbs you so little? Now that the death-toll of innocent lives is running into the hundreds are you still as callous and blase about the suffering which bombing inevitably causes?
Logically you fail to provide anything more than a wooly, hopeful belief that bombing will lead to the success of American aims. These aims themselevs remain vague and ill-defined. If this is a war on terrorism then when and how does it end? When each former, current or potential member of Al-Queda is wiped out, when Bin Laden dies, when the whole world falls into line behind capitalism? What do you do if the terrorists' determination to strike is hardened by the current conflict not weakened, especially if their capacity to strike remains in place. Taking out a few camps and bases, which will clearly have been vacated long before the airstrikes, cannot and will not destroy the terrorists' capacity to strike back.
But what do I know. I'm only an ignorant little Welsh thing blinded by my 'western cultural concepts'.
One more thing, your assertion that if I can't 'play' the power-game then at least I should try and understand it validates exactly the point I was trying to make. Namely that macho, self-important tossers treating the world as though it was a giant chess-board and human lives as though they were expendable pawns have created the situation which we are currently enduring. The competetive mentality which lies behind power and tries to turn everything into a game of winners and losers, dehumanizes every one of us and should be resisted even if it can't be overcome. Life isn't a bloody film and people like Otto should stop thinking that creating a spectacle of suffering and carnage could ever be the final scene.
Peace to all.
 
I posted this in another topic but it encapsulates the feeling towards certain Americans so well that I'll repeat it.

From the BBC News:

'Condemning the air raids, one Kabul resident who stayed behind said: "They call themselves a civilised nation and are proud of acting like Hollywood cowboys ... They are vultures". '
 
Calimero -- Big Love and respect sir.

Otto : to clarify for the hard of underrstanding (you) : I didn't (for the most part anyway) try to refute your arguments in detail, unlike you I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I know all the answers. There are excellently informed people like PCS, well red, JWH, Nemo, calimero (especially just here), and others, including other Americans like D, who can take your weak arguments apart in detail, and have done so.

My main question, the one I was focussing and the one you dismiss as "whining" (you arrogant sod!) remains unanswered : how on earth do you imagine that such a high proportion of SNEERING, CONTEMPT and SHEER ABUSIVENESS in your messages can possibly help YOU get your "arguments" across at all effectively? Especially since you display so little willingness to accept ANY other cultural or political perspective other than the gun toting cowboy one?

Well Red, among other things, summarises this question more succinctly than I have, and takes apart your ridiculous idea that here at U75 we're all singing from some homogenous unvarying script, as you suppose, so I'll leave it there. You're winning no friends at all here. If you were anything other than an arrogant
Yank prick you'd be concerned about that.

Read
a more intelligent and informed view than your own perhaps?

Or will get your rabid barking McCarthyite pals at Leftwatch to burn down this subversive dissenting voice?

:mad:

W of W
 
cant find the its started thread.... anywhere...wanted to thank frogwoman for the approach with me


if you want to know more PM me.

(froggy I mean)

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: sonicdancer ]
 
Hey SD, it's ok. :)

I'll get in befroe 0742 and say ONE LOVE...we must just hope any pray that not too many innocent ppl die ...

froggy xxxx
 
the kind of constructive engagement that D says is being discussed could be seen as positive (though in what circles I'd love to know - I've not heard anything like that from any gov.t/mainstream media sources

sorry :o - now on our media

glad to see that they're not simply letting N.Alliance walk in... however, what fucking business is it of america or uk????!!! remains my considered viewpoint. :D

Glad to see Otto taking up so much of everybody's time and energy. Not. There'd be less steam, but probably more useful debate about detail/tactics/sharing info if we all just ignored him?

Just a thought.
 
I disagree Bruise.
We aren't arguing directly with Otto, he merely serves to highlight the need for truthful information, rather than the spoonfed propaganda he gets from his couch.

There are many eyes reading this that wouldn't dare contribute. This thread is as much a learning tool for them as it is a way of consolidating our own opinions.

God, that was quite serious!
 
Just to let y'all know, and so y'all won't think you've shouted me down and I've skulked away, I'm out of town, (flying commercial), proudly playing my role as a cog in the machine of global capitalism. I will be back over the weekend to torment you with more wisdom and perspicacity. In the meantime, chat amoungst yourselves. I'll give you a topic. Whose side is Egypt on here anyway?

TTFN
 
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