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Looking forward to seeing Bin Laden in a bodybag

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I don't believe the Northern Alliance are anything but a means to an end. They will be used for their knowledge of the terrain and their agents wil be grilled for their technical knowledge of the Taliban military procedures.

There is no way the US/Allies will walk away leaving the Northern Alliance in power, pat each other on the back and say "we kicked ass, didn't we?"

Especially as they are deeply concerned with the supply of heroin to the West. It is time for a war on drugs with a different slant to that of the US/South American situation.

How about heroin dealers sent to Nothern Afghanistan permanently???

Just a thought... I mean... we don't want them, and it would be more of an incentive to stop...
 
Dead Americans = its not political, lets all take time out to feel our shared pain. 3 minutes silence, the world has changed forever.

Dead Afghanis = hooray, count 'em. Bastards are worthless anyway.


Fuck this shit.
(JWH - check your PM's)
 
The replacement for the Taleban wont be much better either. They will most likely be another brutal dictatorship like the Northern Alliance. This war is not being fought in the interests of the Afghan people it is being fought in the interests of western imperialism in the middle east. This war caused hundreds of thousands of Afghans to flee their homes as refugees even before the bombing started. It is ordinary Afghans who will suffer in this war.
 
"Why not the food drops without the bombs?"

Imagine the face, if you will, of a Taliban SA-5 operator, upon discovering the plane he has shot down contains enough supplies of food to keep his division or tribe going for months.

The reason bombs go in first is to wipe out anti-aircraft facilities to allow the food drops to go ahead unhindered!
 
I'd like a bit more RELIABLE reassurance that more than a third of the Afghan population is going to remain sufficiently alive to eat the food, and that the food drops are really going to happen at all. I don't trust the propaganda that has been put out about this so far. I'll check with my Oxfam contacts.

No time for more right now

W of W
 
Well Red, I see your point, and in this Western World that we all enjoy it would be hard to see it going any other way.

But if the Twin Towers were in Kabul, as a business centre, call it the Kabul Trade Centre, and the same horrific plane pictures were shown to the world, would you say that the world wouldn't mourn at the destruction of so many innocents??

I don't buy it. Human is human.
And for the record, I thought that the Pentagon was a legitimate war target for those with beef against the US.
I didn't think the Twin Towers were.
 
Well, when NATO bombed the TV centre in Belgrade (most of the kit was installed by a mate of mine) and killed the transmission staff I don't remember much fuss. Or when the CIA helped to kill 150,000 people in Indonesia. Or, or ....

I'm sorry, I'm just sick of all the blood and blood rage. I'm sick of fatherless children.
 
4 million pole died in the last major earth quake in India. i didn't see an allstar telethon in aid of that one!
Many discusting things happen in the world everyday that we don't even here about.
If the world trdae center and keen in Afganestan it would have had 5 minutes in the news just after the nice human intrest story and immediately before the sport.

When the Austrailians refused to admit the afagahny refugees i genuinly didn't know why the running and had no idea about the Taliban ad knew very little about Osama Bin Laden. Disgraceful i know. but my point is most of the time the west doesn't give a flying fuck about the middle east.

Dave
 
If you live in the western world you will recieve western news. If you want to sit and listen about asian civilians being killed instead of european ones, go and live in Asia, and I guarentee that over there they don't give a shit about us.
If i lived in Russia I'd be more concerned about any Russians in the WTC, because Im English I'm more concerned about British people, common sense.
As for Steelgate's comments about imperialism in the east, where else do you think we'll get oil from? If we didn't protect our assets then the western world would grind to a halt. It's called survival of the fittest, and we are the fittest.
 
Well Red, you know I agree with that, esp. the Belgrade TV thing.

The technicians there were effectively hostages, putting out Milosevic's propaganda 24/7, whilst refrigerated trucks full to capacity with the remains of bodies that his sick armies had dug out from the mass graves, fearful of being found out for their crimes, floated down the Danube. No-one cried out then, either.

I'm sorry, but a few technicians dying, in comparison with the thousands and thousands killed by Milosevic, makes me think that there is no good way to deal with a despotic regime, but they must be eradicated from the Earth at any cost.
Otherwise we may as well just roll over and let some Hitler Pt.2 take us all over and force us to join some sick army of his, and commit the very crimes we all abhor as free, "right thinking" people.

I'd rather be ruled by Ronald McDonald than Pol Pot!!!
 
"our assets"?

I think you'll find they're not ours at all. Why do you think our Governments keep killing people for them?
 
The native afghans have no way of knowing the reasoning for the bombing, saw a programme the other day and an Afghan was looking at a picture of George Bush saying "who's that", all they will see is bombs coming down...
 
So according to WhoWhere, if someone came on over, killed his/her mother and grandmother and raped all his/her sisters and buggered WhoWhere up the arse, that would be justified would it?

After all, it's the survival of the fittest.......

And talking about the fittest, I don't think any Afghan or other non-Western person will believe that the fat, unfit westerners who grow up on a diet of McDonalds and junk TV are anywhere near the fittest.
 
bangthedrum - this is exactly why the Taliban must be removed, and the tools to feed and educate themselves put in their place.

It can work, it must.
 
I see your point Patels Corner Shop, but I know a lot of fat Muslim people to.

Bakri for one, he's a real porker.
Who ate all the halal?

Beware racism here. And sizeism.
 
But do you really think that Bush/Blair etc have the remotest interest in the welfare of the Afghan people in terms of getting rid of the Taliban.....do you?

Surely this is just the flexing of 'muscle' to show, as someone else pointed out, "who is boss"......

Do you really think that this 'action' will have a positive long-term effect for Afghan people, or will they be abandoned once the 'flexing of the muscle' has made its point?

The USA run with the fox and hunt with the hounds depending on what is most beneficial....I am struggling to see any benefits at the moment, especially for those on the receiving end! :(

Edit to add: and Tony Blair is stupid enough and WEAK enough to follow!!!!!!!! :mad:

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: abstract1 ]
 
Maybe in a few weeks it will be old news and the bombing will just continue night after night unreported like Iraq is/was. All the wankers who suddenly have found an interest in politics will get back to cable telly movies/sport/porn when they get bored.

I wonder how the skies over Iraq are these days? Quiet probably as the bombers are needed elsewhere. Any news on that?
 
"The native afghans have no way of knowing the reasoning for the bombing, saw a programme the other day and an Afghan was looking at a picture of George Bush saying "who's that", all they will see is bombs coming down..."

Is that really true? I dunno, but I heard that nearly all Afghans are clued up on what's happening thru radio
 
The American/Allied forces cannot expect to just walk away from this without helping the poor Afghan people, in fact they will have to mount the biggest aid package ever seen to help the victims of the Taliban.

If they don't do this, they are then making themselves legitamate targets for further terrorism. It also would make them as bad as the terrorists. Bad PR all round. The world is now watching the US with a critical eye, and for the first time the US people know this. They have to be good from now on in.
 
Someone, cant recall who, think it was you PK said that the Pentagon was OK but the Twin Towers were not.
Well in that case why did bomber command risk all those lives in WW2 doing in economic targets? Not just the buildings, those who worked in them, even though they knew that they were mainly staffed by forced labour?
We have come along way since the days of 19th century colonialism, we now know its cheaper to buy out the Governments, rather than invade, in the same way its cheaper to pay people near starvation rates of pay than physically enslave them, far too expensive.
Now one of the major businesses in one of the towers was Cantor Fitzgerald, they were one of the largest Government bond brokers in the world, with an active emerging markets desk. What it meant in practice was that a guy on dealing desk there would take a view on the sovreign debt of a certain country and mark it down or up as he/the firm thought the market was going to move. Effectively, they could, and still can make the difference between a third world country getting face value for its bonds, or perhaps only 25% of that face value, with the result that said country pays 4 times the interest the rest of us would.
The Twin Towers were not just a symbol of the US world economic domination, it was actually the place where a lot of it went on.
I in no way say this as some sort of excuse, I knew people at that firm and others, I have been caught up in bomb blasts in the City, I know very well what its like.
BUT, for a terrorist or guerilla, the economic war is often where his/her greivance first started, the little brother that died cos their was no money for a doctor, the debt that held a family in virtual slavery for generations etc, and they look up and at the pinnacle of this economic system stands the US.
Whatever excuse is used, and it has changed in my lifetime from primarily political social justice/socialist justifications to the current twisted versions of the Holy Koran, they are just that-excuses and justifications almost invariably provided by men who think the world would be better if THEY ran it-bollocks.
So motivated by envy and ego they will ALWAYS find an excuse, but then so will we, when seeking vengence-an eye for an eye- we dress it up in a spurious cloak of justice.
There is no Justice here, as there was no justice for those who died on the 11th September. There are just clashing egos, Bush, Blair, our saintly leader, Bin Laden, another who claims to do Gods work- the lot of them, each convinced they know whats best and that they have the stuff that GREAT MEN are made of. Save us from Great Men, for their deeds are measured in piles of dead.
 
Quote:

"It also would make them as bad as the terrorists."

So you don't think they are that bad already then (?)......so working in clean buildings with shiney shoes and recently coiffured hair makes their behaviour over the decades 'cleaner' and more 'acceptable' does it?

It will be interesting to see how the differences in lifestyles, living conditions and perceived 'norms' show themselves in these debates!

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: abstract1 ]
 
Fair point Hipipol, good post.

In WW2, there were not the choices of tatical weaponry we have now. Prisoners of War working in commercial establishments died with the factories or the enemy offices because there was no other choice but to destroy the buildings to finish the war.

I understand the US economy needed attacking in the eyes of the terrorists, but they didn't, in my view, need to kill everyone in the building. They could have smashed the city after it was evacuated, and perhaps commanded far more sympathy from moderate supporters of the anti-capitalist movement, or anti-US foreign policy activists.

An eye for an eye is the way of the world. Sadly.
 
Quote:

"An eye for an eye is the way of the world. Sadly."

So, do you *accept* that tho'? And do you really think/support that (?)

I don't....not without taking into consideration the multitude of crimes committed against humanity by the 'West'!!!!

Is it really an eye for an eye or an eye for a poke with a sharp stick <metaphorically speaking>

Sos PK I'm not having a particular go at you, just trying to tease out more thinking on this which may help me with my thinking on a very emotive subject! :)

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: abstract1 ]
 
abstract1 - absolutely agree with the fact that we have to discuss/row/chat/talk crap about this emotive issue.

You and I have been posting long enough to see the value in debates here...

I firmly believe that this could be a catalyst for good as well as for evil.

I hate the Taliban, for what they have done in the name of Islam.
I hate any organisation/religeon/economic idealism that professes to be the one truth that must be obeyed worldwide.

In the same breath I hate the Western, albeit mainly American attitude of "business is best", of their false ideals of "freedom" that are constantly shown to be hypocritical ideals.
I hate the fact that a "trial" of the terrorists which is seemingly the desired end situation, to bring Bin Laden to "justice" would have to take place under American/European laws, when all too often those laws are waived when the West has oil interests to protect (see the Gulf war).

I wish death upon the Al Quaeda network, and also on Aerial Sharon and his right wing bigoted government.

But most of all I want some semblance of world peace, and if these actions stop one more Bin Laden from doing a repeat of the Sept.11th then it's worth it.

Help for the Afghanis must be the priority. It isn't at the moment, but the public must not forget.
It is all our responsibility to make the Western coalitions accountable for whatever atrocities they undertake in the name of "justice".

Red neck inbred Texan bible bashers need education as much as the Afghan people in order to prevent terrorism.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. That's life.
 
Excellent point about the Koran not being in their own language made by Hippiol. The Muslim faith have yet to have their "reformation". This would break the power of the Mullahs. But before the people have to be educated. The literacy rate in Afganistan is about 25%.
Otherwise a very short war (I hate the way that word is being used. There is a generation which has know world war & the cheapness in which the media/governments use that word debasses their suffering & sacrafice) with minimum casulties which will allow the refugees to be survive the coming winter.
 
What's with all the moral relativism here? Militant Islamic nuts are trying to kill me! Not me personally, but my chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when some crazy fucker blows up for Allah are as good as anyone else's in an American metro area .

On a basic level, I don't care why they want me dead. If it's them or me, I'd sleep fine if it were them. You don't moralise with rabid dogs or terrorists. You shoot them. We have nothing they want and therefore nothing to negotiate with. The moral equivalency of worldviews is irrelevant.

Are all lives created equal? Yes and no. In a moral absolute sense yes. In reality, no. The lives of the people on my side are worth more than the lives of the people on the other side. Terrorists didn't seem to mind incurring a little "collateral damage" in striking a symbol of American capitalism. Leaving aside moral outrage, fine, we can play that way. Bin Laden is bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Yet the Americans have gone out of their way to avoid killing civilians. If a few get in the way of the laser / satellite guided bombs, be glad we spent the money on one of those instead of just carpet bombing the the whole damn place and letting Allah sort out the righteous from the wicked.

Looks to me like the Americans have the moal high ground on this time.
 
americans have the moral high ground?

bollocks, when innocent people die there isn't a moral high ground. how fucking dare you say that. americans have reason to get the taliban and i personally support the eradication of those evil fuckers right down to the last filthy murdering scum but let's not pretend americans are doing it out of anything except revenge and protectionism. if they were doing it out of moral reasons they'd have gone in there months ago and cleared the hills of those shitbags. instead they gave them cash prizes for executing hill farmers who were being shot by one group of fuckers for not growing heroin and then shot by another for doing it, and how much of this money went on arms to execute women found guilty of things like prostitution cos they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

so getting rid of the taliban is a good thing, but innocent deaths aren't, and AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY IS A BIGGER KILLER OF THE INNOCENT THAN THE TALIBAN EVER HAVE BEEN.

let's not forget that. so while i'm glad to see those fuckers wiped of the face of our poor planet i'm never going to stand there and say "oh goody capitalism and the moral high ground" cos capitalism is still fucking evil too.

and whowhere, survival of the fittest? what the fuck sort of mindset is that, you fucking shitbag. "We're the fittest" what sort of excuse is that for murder. i hope someone does something really horrible to you and laughs cos they're more powerful you fucking bully. piss off with that stupid we're-better-cos-we're-stronger attitude.
 
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