Long time P&P users

[Guineveretoo]

Why isn't it? Are the wars better under New Labour or worse? Are the privatisation and cuts better or worse. If anything they are evidently worse. Why would you hesitate to demonstrate against them just because it is a New Labour Government? Blair/Brown/New Labour/Tory = common enemy surely. That must be clear whether you are 'Old' middle of the road Labour, Labour left, left of Labour, or anything other than a Blairite/Thatcherite? Unless it is tribal loyalty to a brand regardless of the fact that the brand name is patently offering the same shit as the rival brands.

Because, just sometimes, I agree with what the Government are doing! Particularly if it happens as a direct consequence of something for which I have been campaigning.

I don't think it is clear that the Government is the enemy anymore, and I agree that it is worse.

I am not a member of the Labour party, by the way. I resigned when Kinnock was the leader, in protest at the way they were witch hunting the Left and, in particular, Militant.

But that's not relevant.

All I meant, I think, was that, when we were stuck with a bunch of bastard Tories in government, I could simply book my seat on the coach, or book the coach, and be confident that it would be something which would make me angry enough that I wanted to take myself, and often my young daughter, out in all weathers onto the streets, or into the camps or whatever, whereas now, I sometimes find I have to stop and think and consider the alternative. That's not true when it's about the war, of course, but it is certainly been true on many other issues.

 

[_angel_]

Because, just sometimes, I agree with what the Government are doing! Particularly if it happens as a direct consequence of something for which I have been campaigning.

I don't think it is clear that the Government is the enemy anymore, and I agree that it is worse.

I am not a member of the Labour party, by the way. I resigned when Kinnock was the leader, in protest at the way they were witch hunting the Left and, in particular, Militant.

But that's not relevant.

All I meant, I think, was that, when we were stuck with a bunch of bastard Tories in government, I could simply book my seat on the coach, or book the coach, and be confident that it would be something which would make me angry enough that I wanted to take myself, and often my young daughter, out in all weathers onto the streets, or into the camps or whatever, whereas now, I sometimes find I have to stop and think and consider the alternative. That's not true when it's about the war, of course, but it is certainly been true on many other issues.

What specifically do you agree with and disagree with?

 

[Sue]

Is it worse to have never had any principles or to have had principles and to have jettisoned them along the way? Sure the Tories were bad but then we never expected them to be anything else. Labour, on the other hand, well people hoped they'd show they still had principles when they got into government. Instead, they've done things the Tories never would have dared to and all the while under the guise of being 'Labour'. Therein lies the betrayal. Therein lies how they can get away with it -- because people in the party cannot admit to themselves that they've been fucked over and their party is now fucked.

 

[_angel_]

Is it worse to have never had any principles or to have had principles and to have jettisoned them along the way? Sure the Tories were bad but then we never expected them to be anything else. Labour, on the other hand, well people hoped they'd show they still had principles when they got into government. Instead, they've done things the Tories never would have dared to and all the while under the guise of being 'Labour'. Therein lies the betrayal. Therein lies how they can get away with it -- because people in the party cannot admit to themselves that they've been fucked over and their party is now fucked.

Sums it up for me.

 

[Guineveretoo]

What specifically do you agree with and disagree with?

You are not seriously expecting me to list all the pieces of legislation and regulations, and other actions, which the Government have introduced with which I agree, and those which I don't?

 

[Guineveretoo]

Is it worse to have never had any principles or to have had principles and to have jettisoned them along the way? Sure the Tories were bad but then we never expected them to be anything else. Labour, on the other hand, well people hoped they'd show they still had principles when they got into government. Instead, they've done things the Tories never would have dared to and all the while under the guise of being 'Labour'. Therein lies the betrayal. Therein lies how they can get away with it -- because people in the party cannot admit to themselves that they've been fucked over and their party is now fucked.

I agree.

 

[butchersapron]

You are not seriously expecting me to list all the pieces of legislation and regulations, and other actions, which the Government have introduced with which I agree, and those which I don't?

Just do the controversial ones then.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Just do the controversial ones then.

Why? So I can give you some more ammunition with which to attack me? I don't think so.

 

[Groucho]

Because, just sometimes, I agree with what the Government are doing! Particularly if it happens as a direct consequence of something for which I have been campaigning.

I don't think it is clear that the Government is the enemy anymore, and I agree that it is worse.

I am not a member of the Labour party, by the way. I resigned when Kinnock was the leader, in protest at the way they were witch hunting the Left and, in particular, Militant.

But that's not relevant.

All I meant, I think, was that, when we were stuck with a bunch of bastard Tories in government, I could simply book my seat on the coach, or book the coach, and be confident that it would be something which would make me angry enough that I wanted to take myself, and often my young daughter, out in all weathers onto the streets, or into the camps or whatever, whereas now, I sometimes find I have to stop and think and consider the alternative. That's not true when it's about the war, of course, but it is certainly been true on many other issues.

Major's Government did some good mainly minor things amidst the major crap too....

Whilst I wouldn't have joined the pro-fox hunting demos or the fuel tax protests I can't think of any other protests against this Government I wouldn't agree with. There hasn't been a protest against the Minimum Wage (itself a bit problematic since it sets an 'acceptability bar' for low pay at a very low rate), or against the DDA, RRA etc.

If we take the DDA in isolation we could talk about what a great job the Government has done for the disabled. If we look around we find that things haven't improved massively. If we then look at attacks on Disability benefit and Remploy it could be described thus: 'here's a bit of paper upon which are your written rights, now tell us how grateful we are while we smack you about the head with a big shitty stick.'

My worry is that within the TU movement there is a reluctance to combat attacks from Labour for no other reasonm than it is Labour. It is probably the biggest political problem besetting the TU movement. An official on the TUC recently stated that re-election of Labour was the one priority that sets aside all other considerations. Any slightly positive minor bit of legislation is trumpeted whilst the major attacks are ignored.

The CWU exec have recently voted to talk to the PCS about joint action. After trying to back Alan Johnson for the LP leadership (and being overturned by conference delegates) they are shifting further and further from New Labour. Why? Because of pressure from the rank and file. This is a process that the FBU went through a little late. After New Labour called them 'fascist bastards' but also after their leaders had sold them short because of pressure from Labour. UNISON are also at risk of civil war between those who want to fight and those who are loyal to Labour. As with the FBU and CWU the rank and file are of the view that there is no option but to fight. Loyalty to Labour over their own working conditions is no dilemna to the workers. It is only a dilemna to some union officials, but it is one that costs.

Unions like UNITE are so bureaucratic and so unwieldy that the leadership can largely avoid direct pressure from the grassroots. They may be big, but they are far from bold. Whilst local organisation can be effective against bosses, the union heirarchy serves as a great bullwalk against rocking the LP boat.

We have to be as prepared to fight Labour as Tory (although as it happens the TU movement called off the fight against the Tories in the 80s and were always half hearted. The trouble with Labourism is that it fails to recognise that it is the fight that improves and protects conditions)

 

[butchersapron]

Why? So I can give you some more ammunition with which to attack me? I don't think so.

You'd be a right hit on a text based debating forum i reckon. Ok, how about the central ones - the ones that you said that you'd been campaigning for?

 

[Groucho]

I agree.

I agree with your agreement.

 

[Guineveretoo]

You'd be a right hit on a text based debating forum i reckon. Ok, how about the central ones - the ones that you said that you'd been campaigning for?

Which bit of "I am not interested in engaging with you" did you not understand?

Anyway, off to a meeting now.

Byeee!

 

[butchersapron]

The bit where you kept replying to me mostly.

 

[Guineveretoo]

The bit where you kept replying to me mostly.

As I am sure you already knew or, if not, now do, it is perfectly possible to reply to posts without actually engaging wrt the content



Now I really must dash!

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, you'd already demonstrated to me this possibility over the last few months...

 

[Guineveretoo]

Yes, you'd already demonstrated to me this possibility over the last few months...

And there he goes.

And you wonder why I don't want to waste my time on any serious engagement with you?

 

[Lock&Light]

Is it worse to have never had any principles or to have had principles and to have jettisoned them along the way?

Principles which take no account of changing circumstances are the building blocks of intransigence such as we have only recently seen finally tumbling in the north of Ireland.

 

[Tom A]

Joined Urban in '03, back when I had fantasies of instigating revolution and waking up the apathetic masses and declaring my campus (Keele Uni, aka "Kremlin on the Hill") an automonous zone. Since then I have gone though several phases of fustration, burnout, revitialisation, and yet more fustration as I realised that the world wasn't as simple as it seemed when I was 19.

I post very sporadically, get fustrated by the shaningans of several who post on here when I essentially am trying to express in my own way how the world can be better. Trying to keep the faith, but it's hard when supposed progressives spend about 10x more time attacking each other than being progressive - although it's not as bad on here than on some of the other sites I used to post on (strange how politically inclined people are so much nicer when you meet them face to face than on the Internet), and also realising that no matter who matter how many demonstrations, marches, and even direct actions you participate in the world will still be the same tomorrow.

But hey, got to start somewhere I suppose...

 

[Tokyo]

I joined back in 2002, and used to post and read a lot more back then. But every now and then, I log in and occasionally find something interesting being discussed - or some mindless scapegoating of the AWL - and I feel moved to contribute. It was in part the discussions on here which convinced me that joining the AWL would be worthwhile - and, perhaps unexpectedly, a few other contributors seem to have done the same.