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London Anarchist bookfair 2020

Larry Noppius

New Member
Also I think you really might just mean the USA when you say 'round the world'. In France, Eastern Europe, and some other places I have good comrades in they say it is a topic that's starting to come up there with similar results and conflicts as here. As for further afield, have you been anywhere with a non-Western anarchist movement/scene? They might well think we're barmy about this, but not for the reasons you might think.
Belgium and the Netherlands too, it's been starting to come up here from about a year or two ago.
 

chilango

Der Teufel scheißt immer auf den größten Haufen
........... so not a "deep split" in the movement at all.... check.
More some people on a thread and some people who don't call themselves Anarchists thinking that a specifically anti bigotry Anarchist space is the best place to shout about it....to her, show that they arn't bigotted against people they refuse to acknowledge the existance off. Kewl.

Should really add as well that this really only exists in the mileu of London. I've not met any Anarchists either in the UK that report such a rife problem as real world events. Comrades round the world think we're barmy too and this literally doesn't exist as a proble in the Anarchist scene anywhere else.

If it amounts as a split I'd say "whether Anarchists vote" or "are dreads ok" are much bigger ones.

It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with...

Idpol is indeed a problem and a lot of people slip into it on near every factor... That shouldn't an excuse not to call of bigotry and labelling things Idpol as a mask for bigotry is pretty shitty too... It's happened a little on this thread and it's sure as shit happens across social media and you know...the world. Acknowledgeing the rights of, and the specific issues felt by the trans community is not IDPol. It's solidarity.

The irony here is that feminists had to fight for their place in the movement facing the same shit, and even now we work against misogyny in the movement.
As far as "calling out" goes...you know some of us probably aren't seeing bigoted posts here right? We may have posters on ignore?

There is also, imo, a problem with "call out" culture. It's not the same as challenging and changing us it?

I'd also echo LynnDoyleCooper in that it's not confined to London. In my dull town with no scene to speak of and only a handful of activists it casts a shadow.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
At the risk of repeating myself, that is typical and expected behaviour for crackpots. There is, after all, a reason why "Comparing those who argue against your beliefs to Nazis, stormtroopers or brownshirts" get its own item on the index netting almost the maximum number of points.
You should get out more
 

Red Sky

It was like that when I got here.
To be honest these rows and the increasingly authoritarian methods used to enforce the current orthodoxy * are just a symptom of the general morubundity of the anarchist movement and it's retreat into a scene. No wonder the kids are out with Corbyn.


* Is there some kind of Kropotkins Law "The more ludicrous the proposition the more physical force required to impose it"?
 

Larry Noppius

New Member
Besides, it was an explanatory and informative point. The organizers of the previous bookfair stated they were "baffled" of being accused of being fascists but there's nothing to be baffled about, it's entirely to be expected. The model "crackpottery + authoritarianism" happens to fit the observations very well, you can hardly blame me for noticing this. Well, I suppose you can blame me all you want, but if you want me to adopt a different model you'll have to show it to be a better fit.
 

smokedout

criminal
If it amounts as a split I'd say "whether Anarchists vote" or "are dreads ok" are much bigger ones.
Perhaps if this situation affected you more personally you might see things differently. But when people I've known for decades, people I considered solid comrades, are sharing batshit conspiracy theories on facebook or supporting and following those who seek to delegitimise trans lives entirely then you might feel this more acutely.

It worries me that you talk of reconciliation but havn't once called out some of the more transphobic and dogwhistle shit here about "trans women in sportz" and "trans arn't women" etc etc that so very clearly has others such commenting back. I think even if you are on the other side of the coin from me in this discussion "good faith" would be shown by tempering the nasty language used by people you may or may not agree with...
I don't know if this is aimed at me but if so .. had it occurred to you that most trans people would rather not have endless arguments about whether trans women are really women or trans people in sports on thread after thread after thread. And as such not engaging with fly by night posters who have only turned up to push a transphobic agenda is one way of trying to mitigate that. There is a thread on here hundreds of pages long where all these things have been discussed, and whilst there are issues concerning how the bookfair manages this situation then perhaps the broader aspects of the discussion could take place on there.
 

smokedout

criminal
Honestly Rhyddical I know you're trying to help, but its really not a lot of fun to be constantly argued over or seen as a source of controversy at every possible chance. You've stated your policies, discuss those and fine tune them by all means, but as bookfair organisers, rather than individuals, you really should be looking to rise above the endless 'debate' over trans lives and doing what you can to take the heat off it. Because otherwise the bookfair will remain all about trans issues, and that's not a bookfair many trans people will feel comfortable attending.
 

Rhyddical

May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
In France, Eastern Europe, and some other places I have good comrades in they say it is a topic that's starting to come up there with similar results and conflicts as here.
I'd be interested in knowing more if you have any further info? (Tho I did mean the US, South America, Europe Asia and even Africa, based on feedback from international comrades)

Re, the issue aroudn the UK

I guess we just exist around differance bubbles of Anarchists as It's certainly never a core issue in any Anarchist network I know.

To be clear here... I'm saying actual Transphobic Anarchists.... not People (I assume like yourself, not trying to misrepresent or anything honestly x) who occupy some hinterland, willing to hear both sides and who have a more complex position, one which is routed in ensuring that neither "side" is oppressed and trying to bridge these differant perspectives... It's sad that folk with this "middle position" (for sake of not rambling on) often get placed in the Bigot/Terf/Enemy etc catagory out of hand... It can be a very problematic minefield that one, and one, we have been skirting through on the thread.

I'm an not saying that those difficult discussions don't exist across the country/internationally.

Rather people who say things like "men who cut their cock off arn't women" and "trans people are just mentally ill", probably down to "women n etc" which is commonly recognised as a dogwhistle (overt or otherwise) of those harder positions.... these arn't really found in Anarchist communities outside of London (from my experiances), where as I have had the displeaure of finding it both online and indeed in London.

The issue with not allowing stalls from bigots, isn't to stymie those with concerns but those who are bigotted. Transphobic groups want to try and project that the response to these two "groupings" is the same, and that it's "anti-woman" but this simply isn't true, sure there are more militant TRA's and Cisphobic people but tbh their position comes from one of oppression and of being abused systematically by the state of the wider community, so I have more time for understanding it, even if it can be quite ugly.
 
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Rhyddical

May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
you really should be looking to rise above the endless 'debate' over trans lives and doing what you can to take the heat off it. Because otherwise the bookfair will remain all about trans issues, and that's not a bookfair many trans people will feel comfortable attending.

You are right.

I'm easily baited. This issue is a deeply personal one and well, fuck, I do like to correct people who are wrong on the internet.

I keep saying "this is the last I'll bite" and then getting dragged into it, but yeah. honestly. fingers crossed, I shant talk any more of the transphobia issue x ;p
 

Athos

Well-Known Member
To be clear here... I'm saying actual Transphobic Anarchists.... not People (I assume like yourself, not trying to misrepresent or anything honestly x) who occupy some hinterland, willing to hear both sides and who have a more complex position, one which is routed in ensuring that neither "side" is oppressed and trying to bridge these differant perspectives... It's sad that folk with this "middle position" (for sake of not rambling on) often get placed in the Bigot/Terf/Enemy etc catagory out of hand...
Lol. That's EXACTLY what you've done!


Rather people who say things like "men who cut their cock off arn't women" and "trans people are just mentally ill", probably down to "women n etc" which is commonly recognised as a dogwhistle (overt or otherwise) of those harder positions.... these arn't really found in Anarchist communities outside of London (from my experiances), where as I have had the displeaure of finding it both online and indeed in London.
Certainly no anarchists here are arguing for those positions.
 
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