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London Anarchist bookfair 2020

Athos

Well-Known Member
So the nub of the problem is actually how and who polices what is a woman/man and in what circumstances is that policing is necessary.
It's about how we organise, not "policing"of anything. That's a pejorative term, which I suspect you wouldn't use to describe other aspects of anarchist practice aimed at protecting traditionally oppressed communities (in this instance, females).


Now this is a ground for anarchist debate, but the solutions offered so far from the GC movement have all resorted to state enforcement of various kinds.
That's because you're (wrongly) conflating gender critical anarchists with other gender critical people. It's quite possible to want to guarantee safe spaces without appealing to the state to provide them. Indeed, that's what the current bookfair is aiming to do for trans people!


Until an anarchist perspective of how this conflict can be addressed is presented, from the bottom up and in the spirit of mutual aid, without the need for cops, courts, prisons and government panels, then it's hard to see how the GC movement has anything to do with anarchist thought.
Gender critical thought is not a monolith. It's quite possible to address gender from an anarchist perspective without necessarily believing that there are no differences between women who are trans and women who are not, and the way we should respond to that fact.


But anyway, theres a whole other thread to debate trans issues on here so if you want to discuss it further perhaps post on that instead of derailing this one.
But this issue is relevant to the subject of this thread.
 

Fozzie Bear

Well-Known Member
But this issue is relevant to the subject of this thread.
The relevance of elite sports to the anarchist bookfair is something that had hitherto eluded me in 30 years of fairly loyal attendance.

As a broad-based event there will be all sorts of things that are relevant to it. But if a bunch of people signed on to Urban75 to monomaniacly discuss the bookfair and Rojava, or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder, or the quality of the veggie burgers, or even (as we have seen) about the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here, I think they would get short shrift as well.
 
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Athos

Well-Known Member
The relevance of elite sports to the anarchist bookfair is something that had hitherto eluded me in 30 years of fairly loyal attendance.

As a broad-based event there will be all sorts of things that are relevant to it. But if a bunch of people signed on to Urban75 to monomaniacly discuss the bookfair and Rojava, or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder, or the quality of the veggie burgers, or even (as we have seen) about the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here, I think they would get short shrift as well.
The relevant issue isn't elite sports (as I think you realise), but how those self-appointed to positions of power within the movement deal with differences amongst anarchists.

I agree you with you to an extent about these new single-issue posters who've popped up, though, in respect if whom we've no idea of their politics or good faith.
 

smokedout

criminal
or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder
I think it's vital that before we discuss this then we urgently need to have a movement wide discussion about whether God exists. Unfortunately most Catholics say no debate so we've basically been silenced and atheists are clearly not safe at the bookfair.
 

Larry Noppius

New Member
So the nub of the problem is actually how and who polices what is a woman/man and in what circumstances is that policing is necessary. Now this is a ground for anarchist debate, but the solutions offered so far from the GC movement have all resorted to state enforcement of various kinds. Until an anarchist perspective of how this conflict can be addressed is presented, from the bottom up and in the spirit of mutual aid, without the need for cops, courts, prisons and government panels, then it's hard to see how the GC movement has anything to do with anarchist thought. It seems more concerned with legitimising prisons by making them all feminist and safe (as if they could ever be either under current conditions) and cheering on a 'fair' Olympics when I would hope most anarchists would be concerned with tearing those institutions down.
This argument seems to miss the ball. We live under a capitalist regime with a state which has, by definition, the monopoly on violence so it's trivially true that any society-wide policies are enforced by the state. Do you also argue against labour safety laws because they "legitimize work" or against minimum wage laws because they are "enforced by the state" or against the abolition of child labour because it is "enforced by the state" etc etc? I hope not. So why argue against sex-segregation on those grounds? Heck, the 8-hour workday is enforced by the state, yet anarchists participate in the yearly 1 May events.
 

Larry Noppius

New Member
I think it's vital that before we discuss this then we urgently need to have a movement wide discussion about whether God exists. Unfortunately most Catholics say no debate so we've basically been silenced and atheists are clearly not safe at the bookfair.
If it were the case that people were required to agree that God exists on threat of expulsion from the bookfair then yes, we seriously should have such debate.
 

Athos

Well-Known Member
I think it's vital that before we discuss this then we urgently need to have a movement wide discussion about whether God exists. Unfortunately most Catholics say no debate so we've basically been silenced and atheists are clearly not safe at the bookfair.
Typically, your fatuous and context-free analogy completely dismisses the concerns of females.
 
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Athos

Well-Known Member
If it were the case that people were required to agree that God exists on threat of expulsion from the bookfair then yes, we seriously should have such debate.
We still wouldn't need to debate the existence of God. The debate should be around the extent to which organisers have any right to punish those who dissent from the faith.
 
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Kevbad the Bad

He who must be ignored
I agree you with you to an extent about these new single-issue posters who've popped up, though, in respect if whom we've no idea of their politics or good faith.
Well, if you’re genuinely interested, I went to the London Bookfair in 2015, 2016 and 2017. I was really impressed every time and thought it was getting better. Then all the aggro happened and two years without a Bookfair. So like a lot of people I feel I have an interest, even though I don’tlive in London. I also have a viewpoint which I give in good faith and as an anarchist of some 50 years, give or take.
 

smokedout

criminal
This argument seems to miss the ball. We live under a capitalist regime with a state which has, by definition, the monopoly on violence so it's trivially true that any society-wide policies are enforced by the state. Do you also argue against labour safety laws because they "legitimize work" or against minimum wage laws because they are "enforced by the state" or against the abolition of child labour because it is "enforced by the state" etc etc? I hope not. So why argue against sex-segregation on those grounds? Heck, the 8-hour workday is enforced by the state, yet anarchists participate in the yearly 1 May events.
Laws won by workers are concessions won against our structural class enemy There is no capitalism without anatgonism between worker and capitalist, there is hopefully an anarchism without anatagonism between trans women and cis women or women and men for that matter.

And more importantly, we may support concessions won under capital, but we have a vision beyond that, a vision where paltry minimum wages are not necessary and labour is controlled by us to the benefit of all, not subservient to capital because capital no longer exists. I have seen no vision from GC feminists of how rigorous enforcement of single sex spaces based on chromosones or genitals can be achieved from the bottom up, it's all left up to the state. And in cases where groups have chosen to be trans inclusive the GC movement has called on the machinery of the state to try and prevent them, usually with some garbled reading of the Equalities Act.

Now were someone to do the work, and propose solutions that came from and could be implemented by the class, from the users and workers in those spaces primarily, then that would start to look like an anarchist analysis of the debate. But no-one has done that, and no-one seems interested in doing that, I suspect because under analysis it becomes apparant that any solutions are so draconian that no-one particularly wants them, and they would be near impossible to enforce. So I'm not saying a GC anarchist analysis is impossible, just that it doesn't exist yet and until it does then the GC movement will remain centered on utilising state power (and by extention violence) against trans people as it's primary weapon of attack. And thats not very anarchist.

If it were the case that people were required to agree that God exists on threat of expulsion from the bookfair then yes, we seriously should have such debate.
I think its been made abundantly clear, over several posts containing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of words, that it is not the intention of the bookfair organisers to exclude those who hold gender critical views based purely on what they think. So perhaps we could move on from that now.
 

rich!

stalin tache
The relevance of elite sports to the anarchist bookfair is something that had hitherto eluded me in 30 years of fairly loyal attendance.

As a broad-based event there will be all sorts of things that are relevant to it. But if a bunch of people signed on to Urban75 to monomaniacly discuss the bookfair and Rojava, or the merits of having Catholic Worker as a stallholder, or the quality of the veggie burgers, or even (as we have seen) about the objectively irritating posting style of the member of the organisers collective who posts here, I think they would get short shrift as well.
Now, that's a serious question.

Are Veggies doing the burgers?
 

Rhyddical

May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
I'm not sure what the person I've got on ignore is going on about but judging from the replies...

We've not spoken as a group about this by my own personal take is that there is a differance between a group which is composed of fellow workers who are Catholic and one which is a bout being Catholic as a worker. Does that make sense? This is a little bit more complex with for groups such as Jewish fellow workers and Anarchists, many of whom reject the organised faith but embrace the heritage and organise as a distinct cultural community, this is before going into solidarity with the deeply faithful who are oppressed on racial lines (such as Muslims) or on colonial lines (Chocktaw peoples)... our Anarchist principles has to have a malliable border, that while rejecting cross class politics, can embrace the discussion specific to differant communities, especially when so much of it is Anarchistic.... Solidarity does start with absolutes.

In this whole parallel between GC people and Catholics turning up... I think we've got a similar position.

We arn't going to let give a stall to the Exudus 21:20-21 brigade nor the pope in to do a talk. If a catholic group turn up handing out anti-aboriton leaflets they would be kicked out, If a known christian conservatist who had called the cops on Anarchists and shared media denouncing XYZ group as an abboration stages turned up and silently staged a sit in protest demanding a seat in the discussion, they'd be turfed out. Equally, I suspect a whole bunch of people who believe in beardy man in the sky to one degree or another will turn up, respect the space, maybe mention their beliefs in a reletant discussion but not attempt to sabotage the event or undermine the safer spaces policy in any way. If they chose to air their beliefs in a open discussiion, they should probably expect to be challenged in discussion of a comradly nature one founded on personal and communal development. If someone got physical with them, they'd be kicked out instead. However if they came in and said "nah the colonisation of Africa was good, we had to bring civiliation to the savages" they should expect a walking out.

Even if harded religious bigots want to try and say no catholic should attend, all Anarchists hate you, they are the fascists!, this isn't true. Anyone without a history of distruption, who isn't a known advocate of awful shit, is welcome provided they respect the space and the other atendees.

Context.

This same logic appeals to GC crowd or for that matter, Commies, Labour fans, etc etc etc

I believe Veggies will indeed be supplying the noms as per tradition.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
This argument seems to miss the ball. We live under a capitalist regime with a state which has, by definition, the monopoly on violence so it's trivially true that any society-wide policies are enforced by the state. Do you also argue against labour safety laws because they "legitimize work" or against minimum wage laws because they are "enforced by the state" or against the abolition of child labour because it is "enforced by the state" etc etc? I hope not. So why argue against sex-segregation on those grounds? Heck, the 8-hour workday is enforced by the state, yet anarchists participate in the yearly 1 May events.
whoa there. states may "by definition" have a monopoly on violence but that's often honoured more in the breach than the observance - see, for example, the past 50 years in colombia, the great sendero luminso campaign in peru, and - arguably - the way that there is a right to bear arms in the united states to defend the people against an overweening government. but be that as it may the british state does not, usually, send troops out to enforce health and safety or minumum wage legislation. child labour may not be as prevalent as once it was, but certainly into the 1980s and maybe 1990s there were still child labourers, delivering newspapers around the country and indeed often doing weekend jobs. as for the 8 hour day and mayday perhaps you could turn your attention to reading about the history of that day and why it is still celebrated. btw i'm by no means certain that you're right in your claim that the '8-hour workday is enforced by the state', i've never worked an 8 hour day on a regular basis despite your claim the state mandates it.
 

Rhyddical

May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
They're from Nottingham
Typical London-centric liberal fake-anarchist cant be arsed fill in more insults here
lol.

I'm from Manchester and I live in Wales. I'm a persistant voice of getting Anarchism into the local and fucking of the central focus, having been a voice for making the "national bookfair" as it were to be more of a wandering one (chiefly thinking Birmingham next)... I think we spoke about that in thread somewhere... ie, London centric focus is counter to Anarchistic organising...

The London peeps sorting that stuff told me in passing Veggies is the traditional crew.

I made an assumption for a quick bit of bantz.

"fake anarchist"

Y'all are way to dramatic.

Appreciate the spirit tho, just a bit of off the mark and over the top here ;p

 

ska invita

back on the other side
lol.

I'm from Manchester and I live in Wales. I'm a persistant voice of getting Anarchism into the local and fucking of the central focus, having been a voice for making the "national bookfair" as it were to be more of a wandering one (chiefly thinking Birmingham next)... I think we spoke about that in thread somewhere... ie, London centric focus is counter to Anarchistic organising...

The London peeps sorting that stuff told me in passing Veggies is the traditional crew.

I made an assumption for a quick bit of bantz.

"fake anarchist"

Y'all are way to dramatic.

Appreciate the spirit tho, just a bit of off the mark and over the top here ;p

You've got me all wrong, I was being sarcastic with my put down

They are from Nottingham though
 

Rhyddical

May or may not look sexy in Hi Vis.
Sorry ... never know with this thread.

Half expecting Lynn to turn up to bookfair with a huge book doing a damn good S. Jackson impression...

"Say nom again mofo!"

 
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