Local council election candidates

[llantwit]

The only thing I can think you might be doing is attempting to "cleverly" show me up for somehow being a "lifestyle anarchist" whilst also adhering to "social anarchist" tendencies (to use Bookchin's terms).
If that's the game then play away, cos I don't really agree with the validity of Bookchin's dichotomy anyway. If that's not what you're trying, then excuse the jargon.
Or maybe you were just joking?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Where did I ever say any of that? Or have you extrapolated all that other stuff from the three word you actually quote me saying ("only a tactic")?

Admittedly a long time ago, but I ran into Llantwit once in the Land of Green Ginger and all I can recall is his two statements, that he just loved literary theory and "I'm basically a reformist". Of course, people change their opinions and philosophy . . .

You also stated on here, sometime in the past, that you weren't really an anarchist, that it was only a tactic, and was duly reprimanded by your old sidekick, Colonel Buendia.

But if you say that this is not true, then fair enough, not really much point debating this rather than the issues at hand

I wasn't advocating standing in elections, just saying I can see the merits of some of Bookchin's ideas, and can see the point behind the tactics of the Swedish group I mentioned. I'm not about to start standing in elections or moving into 'fluffy localism'.

If you support standing in elections in certain circumstances, aren't you in bad faith when you tell the kids "vote nobody"? If you believe that in circumstances standing in an election could be an appropriate tactic, then surely this is incompatible with the "Vote Nobody" campaign.

Bookchin is a very stimulating writer, but his line on elections has to be one of his lamest, along with his take on the key issue of "class". Some groups such as Class War have supported an electoral tactic. But Bookchin gives no convincing reason why only local and not national elections should be contested.

If power corrupts at a national level, surely it corrupts just as much at a local level. What are local councils but the administrators of a budget imposed by the state? He also advocates a strategy that is markedly similar to the Stalinist "stages theory" (that the fight for socialism doesn't take place consistently, but is rather deferred to a future stage). Basically, councils will be won over to Libertarian Municapalism one at a time, then sometime in the future, when enough councils have been won over, they will defy the central state.

Of course, socialists haven't waited till lots of councils have been won over to defy the state: Militant in Liverpool, the Rebel Councillors of Poplar etc.

Bookchin can be characterised as a fluffy localist, because he tries to abstract local politics from the question of state power.

I've never been involved with a buy nothing day... which in itself is clearly something COMPLETELY different from a Vote Nobody campaign. My point about the Vote Nobody campaign was that I see it as an excuse to engage with people about anarchist politics, and a good chance to create a load of good prop to do that.

I saw a lot of your lot involved in one, just assumed you were part of the group. "Buy Nothing Days" "Vote Nobody" are just gesture politics unconnected with workers sruggle, they both appeal to the same liberal mentality of moralism as politics, hence "Lifestyle". This election I voted nobody, but I don't kid myself that a low turnout would represent a victory for our side, or that voting nobody has any concrete effect on moving towards a radical democratisation of society. I have no faith in parliamentary democracy or that a new society can be built without replacing parliamentary democracy with new forms of democracy that arise directly out of the struggle.

 

[llantwit]

Fuck me, Udo. Would that be the Land of Green Ginger that closed down almost 10 years ago? I can safely admit I wasn't an anarchist in 1999 when we had that conversation, but I wasn't really a reformist either. I might have said it to get you off my back if you were selling me a paper.
It's possible I didn't call myself an anarchist in my early days posting on here, too, despite being involved with CAN then.
On the local elections thing - I think that any foray into local politics should be accompanied by a commitment to building alternative (properly) democratic institutions that, like you say, 'rise directly out of struggle', and should go hand in hand with the goal of replacing the current electoral system with directly democratic institutions.
BUT, like I said. I'm not about to start running in elections tomorrow - I was just saying I'm not opposed torunning in elections rigidly, and can imagine some instances where I'd support it. I really don't see this as running counter to participating in Vote Nobody campaigns like the one we did a few years back.
I also disagree that they are unconnected to 'the workers struggle' as you put it, and nobody involved really thinks that a victory for 'nobody' equates to 'the radical democratisation of society' because that would be bonkers.
Oh, and I can't believe I'm being lectured on bad faith by a swappie.

 

[llantwit]

Oh, and I still love literary theory.
I also like pizza and Brains dark.

 

[niclas]

According to the Echo,

Since when did revolutionary socialists believe the Echo?

And since when did the SWP take the high moral ground in terms of political wheeler-dealing? The SWP repeatedly scuppered the chances of principled left unity in the WSA before closing it down.

From what you say the small Plaid group has extracted some key concessions from the Lib Dems - in reformist terms that's what you'd call a result.

The vision thing is something different. Here we are exploring ways of getting affordable housing built rather than executive homes for developers' profits. This means challenging both the mindset of planning officers and the current draft development plan.

I'll post more when we get some results - affordable housing wasn't built in a day...

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Oh, and I still love literary theory.

Yes, but as long as you remeber Sartre's dictum in his marxist classic, Question of Method: "Language can be the subject of philosophy, but never its basis"

 

[Udo Erasmus]

And since when did the SWP take the high moral ground in terms of political wheeler-dealing? The SWP repeatedly scuppered the chances of principled left unity in the WSA before closing it down.

(Just for clarification to Niclas and Llantwit, I'm not a member of the SWP).

Niclas, Your former organisation, Cymru Goch, left the WSA because they couldn't get support for an attempt to transform it from a socialist organisation into a left nationalist organisation. As to principled left unity, as you now find unity with the Tory Taffia of Plaid Capitalist & people who are nationalists who are hostile to socialism, you are in no position to lecture. Nationalism is cross-class, Plaid Cymru (or as we now term them, Plaid Capitalist - The Party of Capitalism) has a right wing, a centre & a left wing. I want to belong to an organisation that just has a left wing!

As I saw it,the demise of the SA arose from the ego-clash/power struggle between the two biggest groups in it, SP and SWP, ironically as is often the case, this wasn't really a necessary split, there was no real reason why these two groups couldn't have continued to collaborate, if the leaderships had been more flexible. The SP walked out after they lost a vote in England that, to my understanding, wanted the Socialist Alliance to adopt a structure of being a federation of socialist groups and also wanted to curtail the power of the largest grouping within the alliance, the SWP. The SWP criticised this idea of a federal structure because it discriminated against the people who belonged to no organisation other than the SA. In Wales, they stormed out after justifiable criticism of their behaviour, for example, of running an election campaign as a Socialist Party campaign handing out and distributing Socialist Party literature and leaflets rather than WSA literature and leaflets, and failing to recruit anyone to the Alliance. The Socialist Party in Cardiff South wanted to stand a WSA candidate under the name they contest elections "Socialist Alternative" rather than Welsh Socialist Alliance, this was somewhat bizarre - imagine if every group in the WSA had followed suit. Having said that, it was disappointing to see their departure, and the WSA was pretty much dead in the water after that.

From what you say the small Plaid group has extracted some key concessions from the Lib Dems - in reformist terms that's what you'd call a result.

Not really, they have wrung some populist concessions. A school in their voting stronghold will be kept open, all their demands are related to West Cardiff where their voters live. According to my contacts in Cardiff West, the opposition to school closures from Plaid in West Cardiff was pretty half-hearted. In reformist terms, they would need to have got a lot more for it to be termed "a result".

To be fair, with the exception of the new Leader of the Plaid group in Cardiff, Neil McEvoy, none of the other 6 Plaid Councillors claim to be socialists, but if Plaid were a left wing party, then to be propping up the LibDems would be totally unacceptable. Indeed, a coalition would be unthinkable. If there were 7 Socialist Councillors in Cardiff, rather than entering into a coalition with the ruling party, they would be positioning themselves as a party of struggle and opposition to the status quo at County Hall and Cardiff Bay.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Fuck me, Udo. Would that be the Land of Green Ginger that closed down almost 10 years ago?

Don't want to be contentious, but I think it was around 2003/4 that Land of Green Ginger shut down after a brief two years when it changed management twice. The original manager, Seb Coe's brother, died of a heart attack when jogging.

 

[llantwit]

Don't want to be contentious, but I think it was around 2003/4 that Land of Green Ginger shut down after a brief two years when it changed management twice. The original manager, Seb Coe's brother, died of a heart attack when jogging.

Good bit of Cardiff ephemera. But we had that conversation in 1999-2000, as I'd just started my MA in Cardiff. Weirdly, I remember it too.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

The guy who ran it, had a heart attack. Because he had been jogging, he didn't have any ID on him & wasn't identified until three days after his death.
I first came across Mr Ninja here, there was a little Cafe at the side, in the early days that became a barbers after.

A bit of a dearth of Second-hand bookshops in Cardiff now. There used to 3 others in Roath/Cathays area - Albany Books on Albany Road, Dalton Books initially run by a quiet French guy, then by Canadian Mike & Roath Books on City Road. Apparently one of the secondhand bookshops in the Arcades may be closing due to rents rising in relation to the St Davids development.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

But we had that conversation in 1999-2000, as I'd just started my MA in Cardiff. Weirdly, I remember it too.

It was somewhat akin to this (one and a half minutes in):

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Lib Dems and Plaid set for a coalition in Cardiff
May 13 2008 by Martin Shipton, Western Mail

THE Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru are entering into “full negotiations” towards a coalition to run Wales’ largest council.

Positive talks are said to be fully under way and being conducted in a relaxed and professional atmosphere.

Cardiff council’s Liberal Democrat group leader Rodney Berman said: “Both we and Plaid Cymru are fully committed to delivering the best for local people and we both share a strong belief in the importance of good service delivery.

“From our discussions so far, it is very clear that we believe we can work together in the interests of the local electorate and deliver on our shared vision for a cleaner, greener and safer capital city. By combining forces I believe that not only can we provide Cardiff with a stable administration for the next four years, but we can also put forward a good, strong agenda that will deliver real improvements in local services.”

Plaid group leader Neil McEvoy said: “Discussions have been full and frank; grown-up politics if you like. The main thing is to put Cardiff and its people first. It has been refreshing to talk things over with Rodney without the usual nonsense that can go on. Politics can be too confrontational and I am happy to say that this is not the case here. We’ve all got on well and if we fail to reach agreement, it will be down to policy alone. I’m positive, but there is a long way to go. Even if we fail to agree on a coalition, I expect a much more positive relationship in future.”

 

[lewislewis]

To be fair, with the exception of the new Leader of the Plaid group in Cardiff, Neil McEvoy, none of the other 6 Plaid Councillors claim to be socialists, but if Plaid were a left wing party, then to be propping up the LibDems would be totally unacceptable. Indeed, a coalition would be unthinkable. If there were 7 Socialist Councillors in Cardiff, rather than entering into a coalition with the ruling party, they would be positioning themselves as a party of struggle and opposition to the status quo at County Hall and Cardiff Bay.

That's exactly the point. The Socialist Party will never have 7 councillors elected in Cardiff. Ever. Neither will the Left Party, the Communist Party, or any other far-left group.

However, people of that persuasion might find themselves in a position to change things (or to save a school, perhaps) if they abandon the sect mentality and try and work with wider forces. When you did attempt this you made a much worse and much less socialist job of it than Plaid ever has done.

I have always said, i'll come on here to talk about the reformist, electoralist, mainstream stuff we're doing in Plaid, and you can talk about the revolutionary, anti-corporate stuff you're doing in whatever association you're with. I think the work I support will help more people's lives and communities than the work you are doing.
Saving Cantonian is a price worth paying to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. We have had major disagreements with the Lib Dems but have to accept the election result and that alot of people in Cardiff felt that they weren't doing that bad a job.
Similarly, when we took a thrashing in Gwynedd we stated that the people had spoken and the schools reorganisation plan up there would have to be revisited.
This behaviour is more democratic than your fantasy-land stuff and the SWP's well known tendency to wreck campaigns it takes part in.

And at the same time there are people on here from the non-electoral, anti-corporate tradition who are not wasting their time attacking Plaid because they're actually out doing something constructive (my mates go to their gigs!).

You can come back and lecture me on the anti-corporate takeover when you can demonstrate that more than ten people in Cardiff agree with you.

 

[lewislewis]

To add to this, Plaid's vote increased all over Cardiff, we must be doing something right. Jesus, it's not as if we're fighting illegal wars or attacking immigrants.

Glad to see Neil McEvoy as leader, although I still think he'll be something much more significant than a local councillor in the future.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Lewislewis makes some valid points, though, putting myself in his shoes, if I considered myself a left wing member of Plaid, I would be arguing against a coalition with LibDems. If Plaid want to present an alternative to the mainstream parties (I don't personally think they are) then entering a coalition will mean that they have their hands tied behind their backs and be associated with any cuts that are made.

That's exactly the point. The Socialist Party will never have 7 councillors elected in Cardiff. Ever. Neither will the Left Party, the Communist Party, or any other far-left group.

The radical left has or has had councillors in Preston, East London, Birmingham, Coventry, Bolsover, Lewisham, Stoke and 6 Members of the Scottish Parliament. There is no objective reason why in certain circumstances a socialist councillor couldn't be elected in Cardiff or anywhere else in Wales. Of course, most people who are disaffected with a mainstream party will vote for an alternative mainstream party, even if the alternative is not particularly different.

There is also a contradiction: The mainstream parties have all converged around a consensus. However, excluding the issues of law and order & migration, most people are to the left of this consensus.

However, people of that persuasion might find themselves in a position to change things (or to save a school, perhaps) if they abandon the sect mentality and try and work with wider forces.

The question is what kind of wider forces?
What beat back the attempt to close 22 schools in Cardiff last year was not Plaid Cymru, but a grassroots movement of parents, teachers and pupils. Indeed, according to left wing comrades of mine, Plaid dithered over opposing the closure of Cantonian, tried to capitalise on the opposition movement by organising a "Forum" meeting, lots of parents turned up, to hear speeches from the politicians who didn't call for any escalation of action but rather another boring meeting . . . in two months!

I have always said, i'll come on here to talk about the reformist, electoralist, mainstream stuff we're doing in Plaid, and you can talk about the revolutionary, anti-corporate stuff you're doing in whatever association you're with. I think the work I support will help more people's lives and communities than the work you are doing.

A valid point, but let's be honest you're only tinkering. I remember having a conversation with an ex- "left" Labour Councillor who had once been a member of a small trotskyist group in the 70s. This Councillor was stating that they had achieved far more as a local councillor for 15 years than they did as an activist in the International Marxist Group for ten years. Having lived in the same ward as this councillor for half of that time, I can safely say the achievements were not particularly noticeable (though Labour have been preferable to the current LibDems), I thought, "What have you achieved? You were a conscientious councillor, some people respected you, but you haven't made any fundamental change to the set-up, or helped organise those who want to fight back against the status quo, or even built a grassroots left wing movement in Roath"

We have had major disagreements with the Lib Dems but have to accept the election result and that alot of people in Cardiff felt that they weren't doing that bad a job.

Will you accept the election result when we have a Tory government?

I think it is more that people hate New Labour whether at national level or Russell Goodpay's administration than are enthusiastic about the LibDems.

We should also remember that voter turn-outs are going down. Party Politics no longer inspires much enthusiasm among most people. Things were different when there seemed to be an ideological clash between Labour and Tories.

The Western Mail recently had an article arguing that the new "Coalition" politics in Wales was a sign of European politics, I see it rather as the collapse of politics. The development of coalition politics is a reflection that there is no fundamental ideological clash between the diferent parties. Can one imagine Aneurin Bevan calling for a rainbow coalition of Tories, Nationalists & Liberals. Such a situation is actually unhealthy for democracy and working class representation.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Most people are deeply unhappy with the current terrain of politics post-Thatcher: Longer working hours for less pay, for less job security. The rail, water, electricity & gas companies making record profits while hiking up bills. Local services being cut. Nothing to do for young people, who then roam the streets until they have an ASBO slapped upon them. The symptoms of social alientation result in increased crime. The neoliberal offensive has also led to an increased commodification of women and a rise in sexism, it has led to a dumbing down of culture and wisdom, and degredatiion of human dignity. Community spirit is gone down the pan. Traditions of solidarity lost.

My gut feeling is that joining one of the mainstream parties is not going to help buck the trend of neoliberalism, as none of these parties are really up for organising the kind of fightback that is needed to really get things moving.

To me, the various social movements against the war, the anti-globalisation movement, and particularly the small increase in strikes and trade unionism offer some sign of hope.

At the moment there are whole swathes of Britain where there is no left wing presence.

While it was never ideal, the Labour Party was at one time a mass working class organisation with members on every street and in every community. There were all kinds of activist working class organisations - trade unions, shopsteward networks, tenant associations. This kind of organisation has now collapsed and it is neccesary to start to build these movements from scratch.

Such a task shows the way forward. It is an urgent task, but one sign of hope is that we can build movements that are no longer tied into the reformist machines and that can have a more radical edge.

Such grassroots fightbacks, in my opinion, can begin to lay the basis of building a new coalition to represent the working class, basing ourselves not on the ballot box, but pushing forward this idea of collective action. I advocate also standing in elections, because most people still see standing in elections as the mainstream form of politics, and the kind of door-to-door work enables people both to bring socialist ideas to the doorstep and get feedback from working people, but the aim is to use the elections as another forum to build grassroots, community organisations.

 

[lewislewis]

Udo, the radical left had 6 members of the Scottish Parliament at a time when those members of parliament actively campaigned for Scottish independence!

They didn't get 6 SWP members elected to the parliament.

Perhaps by entering coalition with the Lib Dems we can reverse some of the cuts or privatisations, Cardiff Bus for example, i'm sure we can save that. It isn't as if Neil McEvoy is going to come out in favour of privatising it. A coalition at local government level is based on critical support on certain issues. I don't know what consensus you refer to but I think Plaid is the most leftward of the four mainstream parties in Wales (i.e the only 4 parties that currently have any influence). I think there is a UK political consensus inherited from the Thatcher era that the welfare state will be reduced or privatised, and that Plaid and the SNP are the only elected parties to break from that consensus and argue that the welfare state should be preserved and improved. Both administrations involving Plaid and the SNP have reversed privatisation of public services to an extent and also increased the welfare state in the areas in which they have influence (i.e concessionary rail travel for disadvantaged people was extended by Ieuan Wyn Jones the other day). Both Scotland & Wales are building new world-class hospitals using public funds (in Wales at Ystrad Mynach and in Scotland at Govan- which will be one of the most advanced hospitals in Europe*). This would be unthinkable in England where the preparations are, contrastingly, to build 'Foundation Hospitals' which discriminate against disadvantaged communities.

People do hate New Labour, but when Rhodri Morgan coined the term Clear Red Water, Labour actually won a majority of seats in the National Assembly. It is only by being a left party that Labour can win in Wales, and part of this must be to openly challenge Gordon Brown in key areas. Labour's failure to challenge Brown recently is why the Welsh Labour vote collapsed two weeks ago, and Plaid gained.

Your final paragraph is ridiculous. You have a right-wing British perspective.

The Western Mail recently had an article arguing that the new "Coalition" politics in Wales was a sign of European politics, I see it rather as the collapse of politics. The development of coalition politics is a reflection that there is no fundamental ideological clash between the diferent parties. Can one imagine Aneurin Bevan calling for a rainbow coalition of Tories, Nationalists & Liberals. Such a situation is actually unhealthy for democracy and working class representation.

This is so misguided it's almost unbelievable. It is far healthier to have a competition of a plurality of political parties as is the norm in Europe, where incidentally the working classes have more rights than in Britain, more trade union rights, usually more sophisticated welfare states and a better share of wealth (the UK is one of the most unequal societies in Europe). Also there could be an argument (which i haven't got time to build upon) that workers on the mainland (particularly in Western Europe) do not have right-wing attitudes so deeply engrained as they have in Britain where the archaic two-party system holds sway.

You need to abandon the Brit Left SWP perspective, otherwise you'll get nowhere and before you know it it'll be 2012 and time to put up 3 "Left List" candidates for the whole of Wales again. Great.


* http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/apr/23/nhs.health2

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Your final paragraph [On Opposing "Coalition Politics" - Ed] is ridiculous. You have a right-wing British perspective.

This is so misguided it's almost unbelievable. It is far healthier to have a competition of a plurality of political parties as is the norm in Europe, where incidentally the working classes have more rights than in Britain, more trade union rights, usually more sophisticated welfare states and a better share of wealth (the UK is one of the most unequal societies in Europe). Also there could be an argument (which i haven't got time to build upon) that workers on the mainland (particularly in Western Europe) do not have right-wing attitudes so deeply engrained as they have in Britain where the archaic two-party system holds sway.

Yes, but what is the point if you have a plurality of parties that while having a difference of emphasis, share the same basic philosophy? I'm sure that in the event of Plaid propping up the Tories in Westminster, we can expect Adam Price MP once more to abuse the name of Antonio Gramsci and explain how this is related to "hegemony", "historic blocs", "National-popular democratic movements" etc.

Workers have more rights in Europe because the trade union movement in the 70s was demoralised by being attacked by the Labour Government & the role of the Communist Party in derailing the Left, this laid the ground for the unions being smashed by Thatcher.

The idea that right-wing attitudes are deeply engrained in workers in Britain is false. In the early 1970s, Britain had an extremely militant labour movement that even brought down the Heath government, British workers who now work the longest hours for the worst pay in Western Europe were once deemed to be the laziest in the West (something to be proud of!).

Throughout the years of Thatcher's government, social surveys registered majorities in favour of left-of-centre policies like taxing the rich, nationalisation etc.

Even today, excluding issues of law and order & migration, most people are left-of-centre on many key issues.

So I'm not sure where you get off claiming that there are deeply engrained right wing tendencies in the British working class?

I don't really favour this fluffy nonsense in the Senedd where they sit "in the round". Whoever thought up the layout of the House of Commons got it right.
Adversarial is right. There are two classes.There are two sides. There should be a clash between the party of the rich & party of the workers, with the two opposing sides lined up against each other. (Though a bit of a problem that the Party of Labour has always attacked workers when in power and predicated itself as representing "the whole nation", rather than the section of society who voted for it).

A system of proportional representation is more democratic (relatively speaking). It also gives an opportunity for smaller parties to have a voice. It is harder for a radical left party to make a breakthrough in Britain than many European countries because of the first-past-the-post system here.

But there is a bit of a difference historically in Europe. In a country like Italy, say for example, Red Bologna in the 70s, you would have a Communist Council in coalition with the Labour Party (PSI) and maybe supported outside by some far left councillors. A coalition of parties which would all claim to be of the left. This is a different style of coalition say to a rainbow alliance of Plaid, Labour, LibDems and Tories where parties that claim to be of the left, shack up with parties that are unashamedly pro-business, pro-capitalist.

The difference is in Britain, coalition politics arises because Labour has moved to the right abandoning its traditional voters. In this vaccuum, the traditional clash between Tories and Labour on local councils has been replaced by a mish mash of different parties and independents.

The fact that the mainstream parties find it so easy to form coalitions with each other is not a sign of pluralism, but rather of how little really divides them.

Returning back to Italy. The Italian left is still recovering from the debacle of the coalition that Rifondazione formed with Prodi. The idea was that to stop the Right wing in the form of Berlusconi, the radical left had to unite with the equivalent of New Labour. Trouble was the strategy resulted in disaster with Berlusconi now back in power, and the left discredited and in disarray. From 2001, Rifondazione, had played a positive role in Italian politics, regularly getting around 5% of the vote, by tapping into a small majority of radical workers, it could have built bridges with the wider working class, and it attracted much admiration for it's role in anti-war mobilisations, the anti-globalisation movement of Genoa & the European Social Forum. As part of the coalition, Rifondazione voted for neoliberal attacks on working people, for troops to be sent into Afghanistan etc. and managed to cut itself off from it's supporter base.

For a socialist organisation, a coalition is an anathema. As to Cardiff Bus, it is unlikely that the sell-off is going ahead - already put on hold before the election. After I wrote a letter to the Echo, Labour and Plaid came out against it, and the LibDems realise that it might not be popular.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Udo, the radical left had 6 members of the Scottish Parliament at a time when those members of parliament actively campaigned for Scottish independence!

They didn't get 6 SWP members elected to the parliament.

You seem to be implying that the SSPs succes was due to their misaguided nationalism rather than their popular pro-working class policies. Indeed, the downfall of the SSP was when they increasingly began to tail the SNP losing their own distinctive identity. I also believe that the sucess of the SNP wasn't due to a surge of nationalism, but rather that to traditional Labour voters, the SNP seemed to be to the left of New Labour.

I'm not sure what your point about the SWP is? There are 4 members of the SWP who are councillors in England today. Half of the Scottish MSPs came from a background in the Militant Tendency, Tommy Sheridan considers himself to be a trotskyist.

PS. I will reply to more yr more substantial points another time. I'm kinda hungover.

 

[ddraig]

Plaid Lib Dem Pact for Cardiff
no pfi
and a day off for St David's day
http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=14;ID=592;lID=1

 

[niclas]

After I wrote a letter to the Echo, Labour and Plaid came out against it, and the LibDems realise that it might not be popular.

 

[lewislewis]

For a socialist organisation, a coalition is an anathema. As to Cardiff Bus, it is unlikely that the sell-off is going ahead - already put on hold before the election. After I wrote a letter to the Echo, Labour and Plaid came out against it, and the LibDems realise that it might not be popular.

So how come you backed Respect- The Unity Coalition and actively tried to promote it in Cardiff? Lol.

 

[lewislewis]

Plaid Lib Dem Pact for Cardiff
no pfi
and a day off for St David's day
http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=14;ID=592;lID=1

Good read. A series of progressive ideas that will make Cardiff a better place to live. I am especially looking forward to the council actively supporting the Yes campaign for the next referendum on the Assembly. We're on the rise!

 

[lewislewis]

You seem to be implying that the SSPs succes was due to their misaguided nationalism rather than their popular pro-working class policies. Indeed, the downfall of the SSP was when they increasingly began to tail the SNP losing their own distinctive identity. I also believe that the sucess of the SNP wasn't due to a surge of nationalism, but rather that to traditional Labour voters, the SNP seemed to be to the left of New Labour.

I'm not sure what your point about the SWP is? There are 4 members of the SWP who are councillors in England today. Half of the Scottish MSPs came from a background in the Militant Tendency, Tommy Sheridan considers himself to be a trotskyist.

PS. I will reply to more yr more substantial points another time. I'm kinda hungover.

No but their clear national position (not nationalism- the SNP is the nationalist party, SSP was/is the socialist party) contributed to their success.

The SNP in power are to the left of New Labour in the same way Plaid Cymru is.

My point about the SWP is that it is well known for dismantling or attempting to take over organisations it takes part in, such as the Welsh Socialist Alliance, Stop the War coalition, Respect etc etc. And outside of internet forums like this nobody knows who the SWP are. You're a waste of time.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I think many ordinary people regard the SWP as left wing lunatics.

But it could be worse.

Most ordinary people regard mainstream political parties with contempt.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Is the Labour/Plaid Coalition who control the Vale of Glamorgan Council going to refuse planning permission to the biggest PFI in Britain, the UK Military Academy?

So are Plaid demanding an end to ALL school closures in Cardiff?
Or just that the school in the area where they have councillors is saved?

Hopefully you are learning the lessons from Gwynedd Council.

This was the only Council controlled by Plaid Cymru in the whole of Wales, until the voters kicked them out in May.

In power, you showed your true face, you carried out the biggest school closure programme in Wales, as part of a programme of cuts, cuts and yet more cuts. Cuts to culture, job cuts, cuts to schools, cuts for the eldery and most vulnerable in our community.

The council is now making an extra £4-5m worth of cuts on top of already making £4m worth of so called ‘efficiency savings’. Closures and mergers of schools have been the big headline grabber in the area, but so has the ending of funding to the Gwynedd Museum and Art Gallery in Bangor. There are also expected losses of 300 jobs and a day centre for the elderly is set to close in September, as well increases in parking charges and a 4.8% rise in council tax.

Unfortunately, our experience of Plaid Councils in Wales has been very unhappy.

In 1999, Plaid Cymru won control of Rhondda Cynon Taff council by opposing cuts in services and on the back of a local campaign against a filthy and dangerous local rubbish tip. In opposition, Plaid promised to close the tip immediately. In power, they reneged on this promise, and propose to solve the council's financial problems by sacking workers.

This story is repeated wherever Plaid have won power.

More recently, In coalition with the Tories on Bridgend Council you have been responsible for sweeping cuts to home care for elderly and disabled people and to free school buses and education. It's the same old story.

Having said that, if the coalition keep to their word, then the ruling out of PFI is a step foward.
But one wonders what the Council will do, if for example, the Assembly squeezes their budget - fight back, or cut back?

All the evidence suggests "cut back"!

 

[lewislewis]

Is the Labour/Plaid Coalition who control the Vale of Glamorgan Council going to refuse planning permission to the biggest PFI in Britain, the UK Military Academy?

So are Plaid demanding an end to ALL school closures in Cardiff?
Or just that the school in the area where they have councillors is saved?

Hopefully you are learning the lessons from Gwynedd Council.

This was the only Council controlled by Plaid Cymru in the whole of Wales, until the voters kicked them out in May.

In power, you showed your true face, you carried out the biggest school closure programme in Wales, as part of a programme of cuts, cuts and yet more cuts. Cuts to culture, job cuts, cuts to schools, cuts for the eldery and most vulnerable in our community.




Unfortunately, our experience of Plaid Councils in Wales has been very unhappy.

In 1999, Plaid Cymru won control of Rhondda Cynon Taff council by opposing cuts in services and on the back of a local campaign against a filthy and dangerous local rubbish tip. In opposition, Plaid promised to close the tip immediately. In power, they reneged on this promise, and propose to solve the council's financial problems by sacking workers.

This story is repeated wherever Plaid have won power.

More recently, In coalition with the Tories on Bridgend Council you have been responsible for sweeping cuts to home care for elderly and disabled people and to free school buses and education. It's the same old story.

Having said that, if the coalition keep to their word, then the ruling out of PFI is a step foward.
But one wonders what the Council will do, if for example, the Assembly squeezes their budget - fight back, or cut back?

All the evidence suggests "cut back"!

Don't be stupid. You have no idea how Plaid ran Gwynedd council. The school plan wasn't part of any 'programme of cuts' what a stupid thing to say. Job cuts? Huh? No such thing happened.

Plaid actually reversed RCT's financial problems with aplomb. Before Plaid took over, the First Minister at the time was about to hand control of the authority to unelected commissioners because it had been mismanaged so much by his own party. They also built new services for young people most of which are still in use today. Plaid allowed local people to be elected to the council as opposed to the usual Labour mafia. By the time Plaid turned it around the council actually received an award for the healthy state of its finances.

'In coalition with the Tories on Bridgend' we had one councillor there for gods sake. Sort yourself out.

 

[chilango]

Udo, what was yer opinion on the mooted Lib Dem/Respect coalition in Tower Hamlets?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Udo, what was yer opinion on the mooted Lib Dem/Respect coalition in Tower Hamlets?

There was no mooted coalition, except from a journalist. But the position of Respect (The non-George Galloway section) is to oppose any coalition with a neoliberal party on principle. I should note that not a single Respect Councillor from either faction has voted for or supported neoliberal cuts and privatisation unlike Left Labour, Greens, Nationalist Councillor have done.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Don't be stupid. You have no idea how Plaid ran Gwynedd council. The school plan wasn't part of any 'programme of cuts' what a stupid thing to say. Job cuts? Huh? No such thing happened.

This is stupid. The school plan was very much part of a programme of cuts.

What happened is that the budget of the Plaid Gwynedd Council was cut by the Assembly (where Plaid are in power - LOL!).

Was the response, "Fightback" or "Cutback"?

The response of the local council was not to agitate against the Assembly, but rather to introduce a package of cuts, which included closing schools, closing an old peoples home, cutting funding to museums and the arts and proposed job cuts that may not happen now that Plaid has taken a hammering.

Gwynedd is significant, because it is the only Council where Plaid has held power in the last 4 years.