Loathing the Golden Compass and all that magical shite

[Demosthenes]

Well its demonstrating to young people that adults can be oppresive, decietful, hypocritical and cruel and that what adults say is not always the right or 'moral' thing to do and that disobidience and lying can be justified casues of action. It also laucnhes a humanist assault on the whole concept of orignal sin and oprresive religion And it does it through the medium of a highly imaginitive and exciting adventure story - Rock on Phillip Pulman I say. Much rather that than CS Lewis' christian moralising wank or the 'mallory towers with wands' world of Harry Potter.

Well the point that adults can be oppressive and deceitful etc, is worth making, I'm sure, - though it's not a point that isn't made in Harry Potter or Narnia books.

I don't think it does a launch a humanist assault on the whole concept of original sin, because I don't think the writer understands the concept of original sin, so he's attacking a straw man.

And I don't think it's a very exciting or imaginative adventure story, myself, rather dull, I thought, probably more exciting for adults who have an instinctive dislike of "christian moralising wank".

 

[Santino]

Edit: I like to misread posts sometimes.

 

[Gromit]

Is it just me? I dragged myself through His Dark Materials, willing to give it a chance as so many had raved about it. I hated it, just like I hate anything with goblins, daemons or orcs in it. My other half just started reading a Golden Compass extract and I was happy to see him start to rant on about fucking armoured bears and shit. My six year old quite likes that kind of stuff but then he is only six and still believes in santa and the tooth fairy. So does anyone else hate this shit? I think I was scarred by reading The Hobbit at a young age. Don't get me started on that bastard Tolkien.

I bet Tinkerbell dies when you take the kids to watch Peter Pan due to you shouting out "Look there no such thing as fairies" during the 'you have to believe' death scene.

 

[tarannau]

Well, that'd be a better response than CM scratching his goatee thoughtfully throughout the performance, standing up and yelping loudly that it had been an outstanding 'humanist assualt on the concept of original sin' to a theatre full of children anyway

 

[Chairman Meow]

Well, that'd be a better response than CM scratching his goatee thoughtfully throughout the performance, standing up and yelping loudly that it had been an outstanding 'humanist assualt on the concept of original sin' to a theatre full of children anyway

Quite.

I have no problem in letting little kids enjoy a bit of fantasy ( Santa went down very well in this house this year, what with Santa's footprints in the snow, and leaving hay out for the reindeer etc.). I do expect people to grow out of it at some point though.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Still, I must feel that I must compliment you on your efforts at coming up with the pretentious peach of a phrase 'humanist assault on the whole concept of orignal sin.'

How is that pretentious? Pretentious is putting on intellectual airs and graces to try and assert some sort of superior knowledge - Im just outlining an element of what the book trys to do. Whether it suceeds or whether it should try or whether Pulman is being pretentious is a matter of opinion.

 

[Kaka Tim]

.

And I don't think it's a very exciting or imaginative adventure story, myself, rather dull, I thought, probably more exciting for adults who have an instinctive dislike of "christian moralising wank".

Well you have a heroine who rides a fucking great big violent talking polar bear for starters - Id say thats a pretty imaginative and exciting.

 

[tarannau]

So you don't think that describing a children's book series as an 'humanist assault' counts as ' putting on intellectual airs and graces' then? I'm not even sure Pullman would have the temerity to suggest that if I'm honest.

Pullman's pet peeves and theological concerns aren't really the sole problem for me. It's that the books just don't involve and downright entertain the way a good childen's yarn should imo.

 

[tarannau]

Well you have a heroine who rides a fucking great big violent talking polar bear for starters - Id say thats a pretty imaginative and exciting.

A violent bear - and one that talks at that. My, I haven't been so surprised since a certain Rod Hull introduced Emu to the unsuspecting world. Who'd have thunk it eh? I almost wet myself with excitement when that mangy bird attacked that bod from Bread.

 

[mentalchik]

Quite.

I have no problem in letting little kids enjoy a bit of fantasy ( Santa went down very well in this house this year, what with Santa's footprints in the snow, and leaving hay out for the reindeer etc.). I do expect people to grow out of it at some point though.

Why ?

fairy muff, if fantasy type fiction doesn't float your boat but why get a bug up your arse about those that do ?

 

[Strumpet]

I find it sad that some people can't just enjoy something without trying to pick it apart. Are they like that in real life? All proper n factual n disbelieving?!

Personally, I don't care who HDM was supposed to be written for. It's a story. One that you can (if you aren't so ANAL ) get drawn into and live while you read it....if you have imagination....and can let go.

 

[Chairman Meow]

I find it sad that some people can't just enjoy something without trying to pick it apart. Are they like that in real life? All proper n factual n disbelieving?!

Personally, I don't care who HDM was supposed to be written for. It's a story. One that you can (if you aren't so ANAL ) get drawn into and live while you read it....if you have imagination....and can let go.

Don't be sad - there are plenty of other genres I do like.

 

[Strumpet]

oh it was fleeting.....gone now

 

[Nemo]

I do expect people to grow out of it at some point though.

What does 'grow out of it' mean anyway?

 

[tarannau]

FWIW I haven't picked it apart. I actually wanted (and expected) more of a ripping series of fantastic, imaginative yarns. If anything it's KT pseudo-academic talk of humanist whatnots that seem more guilty of an anal, analytical approach to the text.

Maybe I expected too much of Pullman after so much positive media attention. He's undoubtedly a better writer than Rowling, but the whole series still didn't grab or surprise me in the way that i hoped. It's clever and reasonably entertaining but suffers, for me at least, from being a little too halfway house and knowingly clever than it needed to be. I don't begrudge it the time - hell I read the whole caboodle - but it didn't strike me as the children's classic that some reviewers seemed to more than hint at.

 

[Gromit]

Its for kids, innit?

Yeah like fluffy toys. People who still like them need to grow up don't they.

 

[camouflage]

Some people like escapism and others don't.

People like different sorts of escapism. I preffer space-operas with no aliens in em personally.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

People like different sorts of escapism. I preffer space-operas with no aliens in em personally.

Like firefly?

 

[Kaka Tim]

So you don't think that describing a children's book series as an 'humanist assault' counts as ' putting on intellectual airs and graces' then? I'm not even sure Pullman would have the temerity to suggest that if I'm honest.

But the book does do that. Its hardly hidden deep within the text - Dust is the seeds of knowledge and conciousness and describes it self as 'Angels' that rebelled and Lyra is described as the new eve. If anyone is being pretenious - its Pullman. I dont think he is becasue I think the books are great and love the audacity of what he has done.

If i say 'the opening stanza of Elliot's the wasteland is based on the prologue to Chuacer's Canterbury tales' am i being pretentious? - or merely relating what the authour has delibereately done? (And TS Elliot is pretentious IMO)

 

[Kaka Tim]

A violent bear - and one that talks at that. My, I haven't been so surprised since a certain Rod Hull introduced Emu to the unsuspecting world. Who'd have thunk it eh? I almost wet myself with excitement when that mangy bird attacked that bod from Bread.

I think your being deperate now aren't you? Unless I missed the episode of 'Emus's broadcasting Company' where he (was Emu a he?) has a bloody fight to the death with another Emu for the Throne of the Emu kingdom and then rips out and eats his rivals heart.

My 8 year old daughter absolutely loves the books. What kid wouldn't idnetify with Lyra? Shes anarchic, smart, wilful, rebellious and brave and gets away with it - and has fantastic adventures.

 

[Jografer]

If you don't like it, don't watch it or read it...... why the problem...

 

[Chairman Meow]

If you don't like it, don't watch it or read it...... why the problem...

Again, I will never understand this sentance!

How do I know if I don't like something unless I read it? I read HDM after hearing great reports , and also hearing of the anti-christian subtext, so I thought it might be good enough to give a go. Perhaps my prejudicies against magical demonical tossery would be over-come! They weren't.

It is useful to challenge your own preconceptions sometimes you know.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I'm surprised you managed to read all 3 books though...

 

[Jografer]

Again, I will never understand this sentance!

I suppose it's the 'Arghh' that some people get when they read/see something & it's disappointing... I just tend to shrug and tell myself to avoid in the future....

..... too early, too cold, don't understand I guess....

 

[camouflage]

Like firefly?

Like Alistair Reynolds stuff (well, very few aliens and always a special occasion when met, none of that workaday lumpy-head humanoids all over the place as some sort of warped and thinly-disguised concept of ethnic minorities and foreigners in the distant future like Star Trek or something, although I'm happy to let Banks get away with that sort of thing coz he's really very good).

Firefly's abit too annoyingly Americanist for my liking. I'm terribly snooty about these things ya know.

 

[kyser_soze]

If you don't like fantasy don't read it - I honestly don't see the point of reading something in a genre you know you're going to hate, and then go on the internet and try and be all iconoclastic by saying it's a load of wank, you can't stand stories with a hint of magic in them.

 

[Belushi]

Like firefly?

Or Dune.

 

[Chairman Meow]

If you don't like fantasy don't read it - I honestly don't see the point of reading something in a genre you know you're going to hate, and then go on the internet and try and be all iconoclastic by saying it's a load of wank, you can't stand stories with a hint of magic in them.

Where is that banging head repeatedly smilie?

 

[kyser_soze]

Why do you read something you know you're going to hate. Seriously, despite being persuaded that it's one of the better books in the Fantasy/SF genre (and it straddles both), knowing that it will have elements that you think are bollocks, read it and then say 'Well, that was bollocks because it had all the story elements I hate.'

I can't stand romances of ANY kind so I don't read them, for their cheesyness, their miserable variants on relationships; same goes for 'chicklit'.

 

[Chairman Meow]

Why do you read something you know you're going to hate. Seriously, despite being persuaded that it's one of the better books in the Fantasy/SF genre (and it straddles both), knowing that it will have elements that you think are bollocks, read it and then say 'Well, that was bollocks because it had all the story elements I hate.'

I can't stand romances of ANY kind so I don't read them, for their cheesyness, their miserable variants on relationships; same goes for 'chicklit'.

Once again, for the hard of understanding, I didn't know I was going to hate it until I'd read the fecking thing! So many people had told me how great it was, I thought, just maybe, I'd be converted! Do all you people just decided you hate something and then never, ever give it another go? You must miss out on such a lot!