Livingston and Glasgow Cathcart by-elections thread

[rednblack]

Nice post.

it certainly is i didnt think you lot did steamhammer polemic anymore

 

[Matt S]

>>Others on here might not be aware of the events that followed the hysteria gee'd along by the votes. When asked toleave the chamber the 3 female SSP MSP's were told by the Chief Polids atthe Parliament that he was not taking them thru' the front door but via the back entrance. And why?? Because he could not guarantee their physical safety. Yup, such is the denouement of your behaviour and witchhunt that 3 women could not have their physical safety guaranteed by the police because of the disgraceful behaviour of some MSP's. The next time the SGP mouth platitudes about womens rights and opposition to violence against women I sincerely hope there's someone there to remind them of their complicity in the physical safety of 3 Socialist women being threatened by MSP's in parliament. Your MSP's are a disgrace, they are the most loathsome of politicians, those who say much but scuttle for safety when it gets even tepid never mind warm.>>

Umm - right about here your already massively overheated rant crosses the line into bonkers. Are you suggesting that the Scottish Greens were threatening SSP MSPs with physical violence? Or that they were somehow to blame for what the police said or did? I honestly don't know what you
are talking about.

Oh, and as for your argument that voting to suspend the SSP MSPs caused the vote on hepatitas to fall, you don't seem to understand the timeline - the SSP MSPs *knew* they would be chucked out of the chamber for their protest, so they doomed the hepatitas motion (and a few others) to failure - other MSPs had no say in the decision taken. So, it can rightly be argued, the SSP chose a pretty stupid time to wave their placards and get themselves chucked out, which is why the SGP were so pissed off with them.

Just in case you didn't see my post above (which your accusation that other Greens refuse to condemn the SGP MSPs decision suggests that you didn't), I think that the decision taken by the SGP was *wrong*. However, I don't think that painting them as responsible for all the ills in the Western World, as 'green slime' and 'cunts' is a particularly good way of (a) understanding their reasoning or (b) debating anything at all, quite frankly.

Matt

 

[Nigel Irritable]

SHowever, I don't think that painting them as responsible for all the ills in the Western World, as 'green slime' and 'cunts' is a particularly good way of (a) understanding their reasoning or (b) debating anything at all, quite frankly

Doesn't that rather depend on whether you regard the SGP MSPs as being "on our side" in any meaningful way as opposed to "just another bunch of capitalist politicians, but with a liking for bicycles and yoghurts". There are people in the Greens it can be worth taking a politer tone with, at the rank and file level, but not many of those and in my experience none at all at national parliament level.

 

[Matt S]

I've noticed a lot of this 'rank and file' and 'grassroots' myth about the Greens - it feeds into the other legend that rw is always hurling about concerning the 'right-wing leadership' of the Greens. It's total nonsense, in my experience. As in any organisation (just like the SSP, the IWCA, or anyone else really) there are some really sound people, and some people whose behaviour is less good. Their behaviour is not conditioned by their position in the party - and that Leninists hold this view is a bit confusing. It would make more sense coming from an anarchist critique, I would've thought.

I'm not very 'rank and file', I guess, but I don't think I'm 'green slime'. Maybe I missed my transformation.

Matt

 

[Fedayn]

Umm - right about here your already massively overheated rant crosses the line into bonkers. Are you suggesting that the Scottish Greens were threatening SSP MSPs with physical violence? Or that they were somehow to blame for what the police said or did? I honestly don't know what you are talking about.

You can't accept can you that your MSP's involvement and votes added fuel to the fire. You cannot take part in such behaviour and then try and sidle away when the consequences of your actions are revealed. The hysteria that you helped create was where the threats came from. I never once said that a single SGP MSP threatened anyone, least of all the establishment, but I stand by my assertion that your MSP's helped create that hysteria. Your MSP's helped stoke that fire, don't try the 'It wasnae me guv' approach....

Oh, and as for your argument that voting to suspend the SSP MSPs caused the vote on hepatitas to fall, you don't seem to understand the timeline - the SSP MSPs *knew* they would be chucked out of the chamber for their protest, so they doomed the hepatitas motion (and a few others) to failure - other MSPs had no say in the decision taken. So, it can rightly be argued, the SSP chose a pretty stupid time to wave their placards and get themselves chucked out, which is why the SGP were so pissed off with them.

Unless i'm mistaken you believe that our MSP's have the ability to tell the future, now I agree that they're good working-class representatives i doubt their ability to predict the future. I can assure you they didn't believe they would receive the suspension that they did.

Just in case you didn't see my post above (which your accusation that other Greens refuse to condemn the SGP MSPs decision suggests that you didn't), I think that the decision taken by the SGP was *wrong*. However, I don't think that painting them as responsible for all the ills in the Western World, as 'green slime' and 'cunts' is a particularly good way of (a) understanding their reasoning or (b) debating anything at all, quite frankly.

Matt

Never called them cunts or green slime onc. Loathsome and forelock-tugging yes but not what you said.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I've noticed a lot of this 'rank and file' and 'grassroots' myth about the Greens

I'm not talking about their internal structures. I am talking quite specifically about the people they have representing them in every national parliament that I am aware of. I don't know of one single Green TD, MSP or whatever members of the German parliament are called who I would give the steam off my piss to.

On the other hand, my experience of Green members has been that many are hippy arseholes, some are holier than thou right wingers who like bicycles, and some are well meaning activists who have joined a useless political organisation. The last bunch are worth arguing with in a relatively polite way - not something which includes making any concessions to the notion that their party is somehow progressive or "on our side", but a tactical approach when trying to win them over to a better (ie class based) politics.

"Environmentalism" without a class analysis (which is the central point of the Green Party) just amounts to flat taxes on working class people.

 

[tollbar]

What the events in the parliament proved, if nothing else, is that when the going gets tough the Greens are always going to run for cover behind the skirts of the establishment in the hope of getting a few crumbs from the table of McConnell, Reid and the rest of the Scottish political establishment and their pals in the media. What do you people think you are going to get from them now that the ruling class and its allies in Brussels are gearing up to criminalise dissent. You people are dealing with the scottish Labour party one of the most ruthless political machines in these islands whose principal purpose is to maintain the integrity and control of the Brutish state in Scotland. They will pat you on the back and use you as a bit of left cover over issues like the Asylum seekers and they will dump you down the nearest pit as soon as it suites them. That well known mouthpiece of the ruling class, George Kerevan, told a senior member of the SSP after the 03 elections that now that the SSP were a force in parliament they were going to be a state target. does think that its any accident that its Kerevans newspaper group The Scotsman/Scotland On Sunday thats been boosting the Greens as potential coalition material for the Nats ?. The spectre haunting the Scottish political class aint Robin Harper but a strengthened SSP able to campaign against capitalism and for an independent socialist scotland inside Hollyrood, but outside the state sanctioned political framework.

 

[rednblack]

the green party are not a threat to any power structures or neo liberalism, or big business - but a decent democratic socialist party (whatever its faults) can be a danger - and that's why the greens will always get bought off

 

[Matt S]

Hang on - the Greens are inherently not a danger, so thats why they get bought off? Whats the point of buying them off if they're not a danger in the first place?

That argument presupposes the truth that there are both reformist and radical elements in Green parties (which is self-evidently the case). All you're saying is that its impossible to be a radical Green - which is nonsense.

Matt

 

[rednblack]

Hang on - the Greens are inherently not a danger, so thats why they get bought off? Whats the point of buying them off if they're not a danger in the first place?


Matt

well, just to be sure, it's worth buying them off to newter the so called 'radical' elements (who are in a tiny if not non existant minority)

 

[parallelepipete]

Doesn't that rather depend on whether you regard the SGP MSPs as being "on our side" in any meaningful way as opposed to "just another bunch of capitalist politicians, but with a liking for bicycles and yoghurts". There are people in the Greens it can be worth taking a politer tone with, at the rank and file level, but not many of those and in my experience none at all at national parliament level.

Oh give it a rest, Nigel (though your name suggests I'm hoping in vain).

This is the problem with some socialists - they are so fond of stereotypes: "just another bunch of capitalist politicians, but with a liking for bicycles and yoghurts".

The Green philosophical basis is the acceptance of limits to growth in a world of finite resources. If you actually stopped to think, you'd realise that this sort of premise does not lead to a capitalist society.

 

[parallelepipete]

the green party are not a threat to any power structures or neo liberalism, or big business - but a decent democratic socialist party (whatever its faults) can be a danger - and that's why the greens will always get bought off

Hey, rednblack, check the banner on the Labour Party's homepage. They're apparently a democratic socialist party. Well, they haven't been bought off by big business, have they?

 

[parallelepipete]

"Environmentalism" without a class analysis (which is the central point of the Green Party) just amounts to flat taxes on working class people.

Nigel, you're talking absolute bollocks. How is a carbon tax a flat tax? How is the Greens' support for higher tax rates for higher incomes a flat tax? You're probably just thinking of congestion charging, which FYI is fairly divisive issue in the SGP. The main reason I would support it is it's a relatively quick way of generating revenue to plough into public transport, and in any case car ownership is linked to household income, so how is that a 'tax on the working classes'?

 

[Fedayn]

Hey, rednblack, check the banner on the Labour Party's homepage. They're apparently a democratic socialist party. Well, they haven't been bought off by big business, have they?

I think the word that rednblack used that preceded 'democratic socialist party' was the word decent, not a word that could be applied to the Labour Party i'm sure you'd agree?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Far from "talking bollocks", you only have to look at the real world processes. What "eco-taxes" get implemented? Thus far ones like the bin tax and congestion charges, along with water metering. ie taxes on working class people as "consumers", rather than forcing business to pay for its own messes.

And no matter what nicer schemes the Greens think up, their only conceivable method of getting them implemented is to take part as junior partners in capitalist coalitions (at local or national level) which will prove only too willing to wrap attacks on working class living standards in the "environmentalist" clothing the Greens provide. The knock on effect of course being to encourage hostility amongst workers to environmental concerns.

 

[parallelepipete]

Far from "talking bollocks", you only have to look at the real world processes. What "eco-taxes" get implemented? Thus far ones like the bin tax and congestion charges, along with water metering. ie taxes on working class people as "consumers", rather than forcing business to pay for its own messes.

And no matter what nicer schemes the Greens think up, their only conceivable method of getting them implemented is to take part as junior partners in capitalist coalitions (at local or national level) which will prove only too willing to wrap attacks on working class living standards in the "environmentalist" clothing the Greens provide. The knock on effect of course being to encourage hostility amongst workers to environmental concerns.

And the SSP are on the verge of taking power at Holyrood? Gurrier made a good point a while ago about the Greens needing to compromise to achieve electoral success, which then dilutes any merit in their having power - but that's the fault of the current parliamentary system in a capitalist world, so it applies to every party. Why attack the Greens with this argument in particular?

 

[greenman]

Oh, we're so priviledged that the SP ortho Trot Irritable will lower himself to talk to us....if we pass his non right wing non hippy yoghurt knitting test.
And RnB who as I remember it when I first came on here, could marshal a reasonable argument, has descended to the level of a hate spitting sectarian troll posting drivel and contradictory nonsense.
As Matt says , the level of debate on here is pathetic sometimes....
For the record, I , a second Green, agree with Matt on the question of the vote.
Dogmatists.
You think we are all ignorant middle class dumbos or something?
Indulge me to descend to your level for half a post -
FYI I spent 10-15 years on the "anarcho and "hard" left in this country - an almost complete waste of time spent in the company of many people for whom the politics was more of an excuse for acting out their personal aggrieved revenge fantasies on society or the need for what were basically social failures to feel important rather than any real understanding of society or its mechanisms.

I eventually came to the conclusion that the majority of the hard left in Britain are "playing at it", those who are serious are even more dangerous - they are the ones (and I detect it in RnB's hate filled language) who start out with high ideals, and end up machine gunning people into trenches because they get in the way of their utopia, don't fit, or are just too.. fallible and human for the lovely shining vision...
Rant over.

 

[parallelepipete]

Fedayn, could I request that you stop the personal abuse? You've apparently been on the boards longer than me, but you don't seem to have engaged much in the discussions on u75 before now, so why not start off with a little less vitriol?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I agree - can we cut the abuse please, and get back to rational debate?

On many issues the Greens and SSP work together in Scotland and I for one have no desire to sling mud at either side.

My concern in the Glasgow Cathcart by-election in particular was that in the last election for this seat (2003 for the Scottish Parliament), the SSP did extremely well, defeating the Lib Dems, beating independent campaigner and ex-Labour Mayor Glasgow Pat Lally, 30 votes behind the tories, and were only 800 votes behind second placed SNP. Given the disgrace that the Labour MSP has brought upon himself and his party, the SSP could justifiably argue that they were best placed to maximise the protest vote against the war and the policies of New Labour in Holyrood and Westminster. While the Scottish Green Party has a perfect right to stand, it seems inappropriate of them to do so in this particular seat (given they didn't contest it before), and the best thing would have been for them to stand aside and let the SSP have a good crack at it, while the Greens concentrated their fire on Livingston and the Westminster parliament.

That's all ...

 

[Fedayn]

Fedayn, could I request that you stop the personal abuse? You've apparently been on the boards longer than me, but you don't seem to have engaged much in the discussions on u75 before now, so why not start off with a little less vitriol?

A little less vitriol?? After what your MSP's did??

I'll tell you what we'll make a deal. You lot stump up the money you've voted to be taken out of the pockets of the SSP MSP's and staff and we can all play nice. We got a deal??

 

[Bernie Gunther]

More party vs party crap.

Boring.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I warmly invite those who are so vocal sniping at various green parties to discuss some more substantial issues of how to reconcile sustainability with the ideologies of traditonal left parties on the Sustainabilty vs Standard of living thread.

 

[rednblack]

You think we are all ignorant middle class dumbos or something?

of course i think you're all ignorant uncaring middle class smug hippy scum the green party are just green tories ffs, accept the tories are honest about being cunts on the whole

green party members can be divided into three

1. the right wing libdems/tories with a hippy/green tinge
2. the hippy scum ben&jerry's/anita roddick business twats
3. the well meaning lefty types who are just thick or brain washed by their own middle class upbringing

 

[james_walsh]

You think we are all ignorant middle class dumbos or something?
(/QUOTE]

YES(u did ask).

 

[james_walsh]

I warmly invite those who are so vocal sniping at various green parties to discuss some more substantial issues of how to reconcile sustainability with the ideologies of traditonal left parties on the Sustainabilty vs Standard of living thread.

No, you've invited us to talk like greens.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Does that mean a socialist can't talk about sustainability?

If so why not?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

of course i think you're all ignorant uncaring middle class smug hippy scum the green party are just green tories ffs, accept the tories are honest about being cunts on the whole

green party members can be divided into three

1. the right wing libdems/tories with a hippy/green tinge
2. the hippy scum ben&jerry's/anita roddick business twats
3. the well meaning lefty types who are just thick or brain washed by their own middle class upbringing

This is a fair example of why I begin to wonder if the focus on ad-hominems and on party vs party crap betrays a lack of anything sensible to say on the subject of sustainability. When I see ad-hominem attacks of this kind, I tend to suspect a fundamental weakness.

I broadly agreee with gurrier's excellent and far more intelligent critique of green parties here

Having got that out of the way, we are left with the science and still haven't addressed the more fundamental issue, relevant to all humans, of how we reconcile sustainability with other economic and social aspirations.

Whatever happened to scientific socialism?

 

[herman]

This is a fair example of why I begin to wonder if the focus on ad-hominems and on party vs party crap betrays a lack of anything sensible to say on the subject of sustainability. When I see ad-hominem attacks of this kind, I tend to suspect a fundamental weakness.

I broadly agreee with gurrier's excellent and far more intelligent critique of green parties here

Having got that out of the way, we are left with the science and still haven't addressed the more fundamental issue, relevant to all humans, of how we reconcile sustainability with other economic and social aspirations.

Whatever happened to scientific socialism?

I do agree Bernie though scientific socialism is alive and well. I personally have organised meetings on a joint socialist/green platform. I accept that both the green and socialist movements are not going to agree on everything but for society to advance both strands of political thought have to work together and if necessary find a synthesis.

Socialism in a radioactive, toxic wasteland is a non started (as the Ukraine learned following Chernobyl) but nor is the idea that sustainability will have any meaning without strong social and state input in terms of planning and creating a meaningful framework, corporate goodwill cannot be relied upon.

So the two movements need to come together, in terms of practical activity and in terms of developing ideas. The class nature of the two movements would probably make a synthesis difficult but common goals can be achieved through initially dialogue but in terms of publishing policy, discussion documents and direct action. Granted there are sections of the green movement and socialist movement who would not be able to travel such a road but they cannot be the ones allowed to frame the debate.

One immediate common goal would be for example the public ownership of rail and other forms of transportation rather than the more individualist car economy.

 

[parallelepipete]

green party members can be divided into three

1. the right wing libdems/tories with a hippy/green tinge
2. the hippy scum ben&jerry's/anita roddick business twats
3. the well meaning lefty types who are just thick or brain washed by their own middle class upbringing

Well, apparently I fall into category 3, and since I can't annul my middle-class upbringing and am either brainwashed or thick, I'd better give up now. Hmmm.

 

[parallelepipete]

Socialism in a radioactive, toxic wasteland is a non started (as the Ukraine learned following Chernobyl) but nor is the idea that sustainability will have any meaning without strong social and state input in terms of planning and creating a meaningful framework, corporate goodwill cannot be relied upon.

Indeed.