Living in the 21st Century

[tbaldwin]

What a load of unsubstanciated rubbish. I can't be in an average job then. People in the UK are working longer hours than ever.


and this from a fella who goes on about how the immigrants are lowering our overall standards? - the minimum income and tax credits have trapped folk in low wages - setting a new low standard. The 'spending' on health and education comes a) back out from our pockets (not from the super rich who pay sod all in taxes) and b) goes into the pockets of and subsidising big business via PFI, PPP etc etc it is not reflected in improved services

1 I dont really know what your trying to say there? I think there are loads of people working much shorter hours than before. People who top their wages up by the minimum income guarantee,tax credits etc.

2 dennis, you know full well i never "go on about how immigrants are lowering our overall standards" I say quite clearly that i believe immigration has different effects on different classes in the UK and beyond.

And i think its 6th form politics to say that all the extra money on health and education has gone on pfi etc.
Do you have any facts to back it up? Or is it just unsubstantiated rubbish?
Do you think having more nurses and teachers is a good or bad thing?

 

[poster342002]

At what point along the way did such people lose their faculty for independent thinking?

I think it's the net result of 30 years of "if a lie is told often enough, loudly enough, it becomes [percieved as] the truth".

 

[poster342002]

What's your kind of work mate? I'm really staggered here. This is worse than anything i've heard thus far.

White-collar clerical.

 

[nino_savatte]

No they aren't. I'm no expert but a quick Google - which you could have done - shows that working hours now are much lower than in the past, and the scope for leisure, or idleness, is much greater. As is life expectancy.

Aye, the hours worked these days are much lower than those worked in the 19th century: you had to work 6 days a week and your only day off was Sunday when you were expected to go to church.

People are required to put in extra hours without extra pay - this is particularly true of salaried staff as opposed to hourly paid workers. So people do work more hours here than in the countries in the rest of Europe - which, incidentally, have more public holidays than we do.

 

[slaar]

That's not what they tell ME, or what my experience suggests, but maybe somewhere in the South-East they are into la dolce vita, even if they don't look like it to me, poor buggers. The idleness of children and teenagers - for whom scarcely anything interesting is provided except for money - may perhaps be greater, but the rest of us seem to be sweating blood for sod all worth having. Life expectancy in the sense of what you expect from life is at a pretty low point, I reckon, though they will keep us struldbugging on in homes while there's money in it, doubtless. I think you are well named, Fullyplumped. Keep the mind free of obesity, if you can, however.

You have spoken to people who have experience of working in 19th century factories, have you?

Elizabeth Bentley, interviewed by Michael Sadler's Parliamentary Committee on 4th June, 1832.

I worked from five in the morning till nine at night. I lived two miles from the mill. We had no clock. If I had been too late at the mill, I would have been quartered. I mean that if I had been a quarter of an hour too late, a half an hour would have been taken off. I only got a penny an hour, and they would have taken a halfpenny.

How many people do you know who work from 5 til 9 for subsistence wages?

They weren't famously termed 'dark satanic mills' for nothing.

 

[fela fan]

I think it's the net result of 30 years of "if a lie is told often enough, loudly enough, it becomes [percieved as] the truth".

So that's the advent of the telly then.

 

[poster342002]

So that's the advent of the telly then.

Telly has been around longer than 30 years. I think there's something more to this - although ruling-class propaganda via TV certainly plays a role, I'm sure.

 

[nino_savatte]

So that's the advent of the telly then.

Nah, since the first days of the newspaper, possibly even earlier. The Romans used to disseminate a fair few lies. Then there's the First Crusade, Xtians were told some horrible stories about the heathen Saracens - all baby eaters to a man. How about WWI with its stories of "Nuns being raped by Huns"?

 

[fela fan]

Telly has been around longer than 30 years. I think there's soemthing more to this - although ruling-class propaganda via TV certainly plays a role, I'm sure.

But 30 years is about the time that it really took off on a mass basis.

Well anyway, i was being half flippant, but really, the telly does have a lot to answer for.

But i agree, there is more to it, and the answers no doubt lie in psycho-analysis. Fromm's book title 'escape from freedom' and his thesis that people don't like freedom and run away from it seem to perfectly describe life in this century even though he was commenting over half a century ago.

Freedom is, of course, the ulitmate sweetness available to humans, but it comes with responsibility and other various pre-conditions, and seemingly the effort to achieve it is seen as too much.

Gnosis stuff i read talked about people finding themselves in a golden cage, a beautiful cage for sure, but still a cage. They themselves had thrown away the key, preferring this cage for the security it brought.

But security depends on others, and if those others so choose they can whip it away from you. Then, all that remains is fear coz there is no freedom to fight the insecurity.

That is what bush has done to them. Fear is dominant. Only those who are free can avoid fear. And only those who can live independently can be free.

It's all coming home to roost now, with this artificial terror war. And many people have no tools to fight against it. Thus a new life of fear and self-delusion, the latter perhaps the one small tool available. But that, in turn, becomes another useless tool in the end.

 

[slaar]

Again fela, you're generalising across an entire country that you yourself admit you now know very little about. The response to the recent failed bombings in London amongst everyone I know, and the general public reaction, was not one that I would describe as fear and terror. It was bemusement, bordering on laughter.

 

[poster342002]

Again fela, you're generalising across an entire country that you yourself admit you now know very little about. The response to the recent failed bombings in London amongst everyone I know, and the general public reaction, was not one that I would describe as fear and terror. It was bemusement, bordering on laughter.

It'll obediantly turn to fear and terror the moment the establishment orders everyone to prance about in the street holding staged mass-silences and what have you.

 

[jæd]

Again fela, you're generalising across an entire country that you yourself admit you now know very little about. The response to the recent failed bombings in London amongst everyone I know, and the general public reaction, was not one that I would describe as fear and terror. It was bemusement, bordering on laughter.

Yep... The general opinion seems to be that AQ are now (at worst) an annoyance to be tolerated, and at best a bunch of muppets...

 

[jæd]

It'll obediantly turn to fear and terror the moment the establishment orders everyone to prance about in the street holding staged mass-silences and what have you.

Hate to point out this to you but people do have minds of their own... Unlike some countries people go to the mass-silences because they are moved by their own emotions and want to participate.

Personally, I'm not into them, but at least in this country I'm not ordered to go to them...

 

[slaar]

It'll obediantly turn to fear and terror the moment the establishment orders everyone to prance about in the street holding staged mass-silences and what have you.

Nonsense. People understandably get a bit scared when bombs go off, killing randomly. And they seek protection. But you appear to have no faith at all in the British people, which is a funny position for somebody who would presumably like to see political change. Must be very depressing.

 

[poster342002]

Hate to point out this to you but people do have minds of their own... Unlike some countries people go to the mass-silences because they are moved by their own emotions and want to participate.

Personally, I'm not into them, but at least in this country I'm not ordered to go to them...

The most useful slave is the one who believes he is free and chooses to wear his own shackles.

 

[poster342002]

Personally, I'm not into them, but at least in this country I'm not ordered to go to them...

Trty refusing to participate and watch the loyal mob-mentality take hold.

 

[jæd]

Trty refusing to participate and watch the loyal mob-mentality take hold.

I did... Though in my case it wasn't "refusing to participate". I just couldn't be arsed, and had better things to do... And there was no baying mob-mentality stoning me...

 

[jæd]

The most useful slave is the one who believes he is free and chooses to wear his own shackles.

Cheery fella, aren't you...?

 

[Groucho]

It would not be true to say that working people currently suffer 19thC conditions. It is true to say that the boss class/Government are trying in many ways to turn the clock back. That the post war concensus ('Either we give the people reform or they will give us revolution' Quinten Hogg/Lord Hailsham') is being rolled back.

Working hours - have been increasing over the last twenty years. You can find extreme examples of 19thC style conditions - 5 - 9, 6 days a week, subststance wages, living in a tied hostel. Newsnight the other night highlighted an example of immigrant labourers (Dominoes Pizza) working all hours and being given negative pay slips! Work 14 hours owe DP £200. Seriously!

Such examples are largely confined to immigrant labour (with 'illegal' immigrants it is possible to find slave conditions) but generally hours have been increasing on average and are the highest in the EU.

Relative pay is more complex. In recent months/last year or so, average pay in real terms has declined. This is incredibly unusual because the comparison is average pay v inflation. Inflation underestimates the increasing cost of living for all but the better off workers, whilst average pay over presents the pay that most workers get. Many workers can experience the reality of getting worse off while the stats show 'we are all getting better off' (getting into debt more like).

Trade Union rights (right to strike etc) are stronger than in the 19thC but since Thatcher are more restrictive than at any time since 1906.

Child poverty is obviously much lower than in the 19thC. However, there are some inner city areas where you can find near 19thC conditions of overcrowding and poverty. Child poverty was moderately decreasing under the Blair Government until 2 or 3 years ago. It has been increasing since and is back at Tory levels.

The safety net of the Welfare State and NHS did not exist in the 19thC. The poor had to depend on charity and rich individuals. The present Government are privatising more and more elements of the Welfare State and NHS and are looking to....charities to pick up the shortfall!

Education for the working class was either non-existant or was provided for by rich individuals, churches etc. Schools are today being sold off to...rich individuals, churches, companies etc.

The gap between rich and poor is actually greater than in the 19thC or at any previous time in history.

It comes to something if one of the richest countries in the World in 21stC has to compare conditions to the 19thC before we can say 'hey, it really is too bad.....yet.'

 

[_angel_]

Aye, the hours worked these days are much lower than those worked in the 19th century: you had to work 6 days a week and your only day off was Sunday when you were expected to go to church.

People are required to put in extra hours without extra pay - this is particularly true of salaried staff as opposed to hourly paid workers. So people do work more hours here than in the countries in the rest of Europe - which, incidentally, have more public holidays than we do.

My friend found this out when she was sent to work in Holland. As a British employee, us not having signed up to the EU working hours thingie she was able to work from 8am till God knows what time at night well after the Dutch staff went home.

Yeah, she was being paid good money (no overtime tho) but so were her Dutch colleages.

 

[poster342002]

It comes to something if one of the richest countries in the World in 21stC has to compare conditions to the 19thC before we can say 'hey, it really is too bad.....yet.'

That neatly sums it up. Things only look good if we compare ourselves to the very worst. This should speak volumes were it not for the fact that everyone has their fingers in their ears.

 

[jæd]

It comes to something if one of the richest countries in the World in 21stC has to compare conditions to the 19thC before we can say 'hey, it really is too bad.....yet.'

The 21st C and the 19th are only 101 years apart.

 

[slaar]

Great post Groucho.

 

[rhys gethin]

You have spoken to people who have experience of working in 19th century factories, have you?

How many people do you know who work from 5 til 9 for subsistence wages?

They weren't famously termed 'dark satanic mills' for nothing.

Didn't cross my mind we were going back that far. The Egyptian slaves probably worked longer hours too. If you think that way I can see why the bosses are walking all over us. Jesus, we get more food than people did in the Irish famine, don't we - so stop whining! Bloody ell!

 

[slaar]

Didn't cross my mind we were going back that far. The Egyptian slaves probably worked longer hours too. If you think that way I can see why the bosses are walking all over us. Jesus, we get more food than people did in the Irish famine, don't we - so stop whining! Bloody ell!

I happen to agree, by and large. I wasn't the one who compared our conditions now to those 150 years ago, it just seemed like not a very useful comparison.

 

[rhys gethin]

I happen to agree, by and large. I wasn't the one who compared our conditions now to those 150 years ago, it just seemed like not a very useful comparison.

Fine - No problem.