Lisbon Treaty Referendum in Ireland (Again)

[8den]

Eh? Yes I did. Where did you get this rubbish from? As it happens, I don't have any problem with people being unable to get home to vote, or even being too unarsed to participate in the whole charade. However I do have a problem with bullshitting nuisances with no politics at all posing as disinterested observers.

Has 8den 'lost it' perchance?

Are you sticking words into my mouth, again yes you are? Considering you used a sentence like "too unarsed to participate in the whole charade." you're calling this a charade yet you expect people to be arsed and participate? And You equate someone who's cynical about both sides as "disinterested?"

Does the cognitive dissoance in holding these two incompatible positions give you serious headaches? You don't make a whit of sense, you're essetially saying you don't mind people not having a opinion just as long as they don't express it.

Please give over, you need to be in the shallow end of the pool, wearing waterwings.

 

[rekil]

Are you going to point out where I said I didn't vote you duplicitious little scrotum?

 

[8den]

Are you going to point out where I said I didn't vote you duplicitious little scrotum?

The majority of posters on this thread can't vote on Lisbon, you've stated that you think it's acceptable not to have an opinion or not vote on what you call a "charade", even if you can vote on the treaty. Yet you seem to think it's acceptable to try and find some weird fruit box to totter over me in some vague sense of moral superiority that exists only in that fragile pea sized box you call your mind.

 

[rekil]

You what?

Go to bed you fecking eejit.

 

[8den]

You what?

Go to bed you fecking eejit.

You first you incontinent incoherent paedo.

I hear that the "cop" part of your username stands for "children of portsmouth."

 

[rekil]

You're getting creepy now.

 

[editor]

Stop all the mud slinging. All of you. Now.

 

[8den]

You're getting creepy now.

Weirdly thats apparently what the mums outside the kindergarden you hang out infront of, say about you.

How's that ASBO working out for you?

 

[editor]

Let me try again. The next person posting up off topic personal abuse in this thread gets a 24 hour ban. If it mentions a reference to 'paedos' it gets doubled.

Please stick to the topic. No more warnings.

 

[rekil]

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Crikey!

 

[Jean-Luc]

I'm not at all surprised to see you cheering on the most viciously anti-worker's rights employer in Ireland.

So Declan Gangley's a better capitalist?

When it comes down to it, the issue wasn't really the Lisbon Treaty (which doesn't do much more than bring together existing decision-making arrangements in a single document) but the attitude of people to the outside world.

In this sense the real choice was between looking backward to the catholic or republican Ireland of the 1940s and 50s or being open to the outside world. I can understand people open to the outside world voting Yes just to stop the No side (which is essentially what happened). But I can't understand people supposedly open to the outside world voting No, ie chosing to line up with those wanting to go backwards, as you Trots did even fuelling this with your scaremongering about thousands of immigrants coming in and undermining the minimum wage.

 

[Idris2002]

So Declan Gangley's a better capitalist?

When it comes down to it, the issue wasn't really the Lisbon Treaty (which doesn't do much more than bring together existing decision-making arrangements in a single document) but the attitude of people to the outside world.

In this sense the real choice was between looking backward to the catholic or republican Ireland of the 1940s and 50s or being open to the outside world. I can understand people open to the outside world voting Yes just to stop the No side (which is essentially what happened). But I can't understand people supposedly open to the outside world voting No, ie chosing to line up with those wanting to go backwards, as you Trots did even fuelling this with your scaremongering about thousands of immigrants coming in and undermining the minimum wage.

This is nonsense. The Ireland of the 1940s and 50s is with O'Leary in the grave, to quote the poet. I voted 'no' not because of any liking for the past, but because I would rather live in a better future than the one Lisbon seems (to me anyway) to hold out.

I hold no brief for the CWI - they are too Leninist for my liking (though I do like their de facto old labour reformist postures) - but it is an outrageous, slanderous slur to insinuate that they ran a racist campaign. I was here throughout the campaign, AND NOT ONCE did I see any SP members or their campaign literature employ anything that could be described as racist, xenophobic or bigotted.

 

[Jean-Luc]

I wasn't accusing them of being racist or bigotted (Joe Higgins comes across as a that rare bird, a decent and honest politician), just of scaring people with the prospect of an influx of non-Irish labour undermining wages and conditions. For instance this which somebody posted here on 2 October about

a multinational bringing in cheaper labour that replaces local labour and undermines all workers as a result - it all becomes enshrined in the 'law' of the treaty.

 

[dennisr]

I wasn't accusing them of being racist or bigotted (Joe Higgins comes across as a that rare bird, a decent and honest politician), just of scaring people with the prospect of an influx of non-Irish labour undermining wages and conditions. For instance this which somebody posted here on 2 October about

And if you read the actual post I posted - quite clearly in the context of the GAMA dispute in ireland - a campaign in the support of those non-irish workers, uniting them with irish workers being led by SP members alongside those same workers - and the Lindsey dispute in the UK you may wish to apologise for the shameful distortion of what was actually said. "scaring people with the influx of non-irish labour" my arse.

You and honesty don't go that well together though do they? wanker...

 

[Jean-Luc]

I realise that you are ultra-touchy on this point, perhaps disguising a guilty conscience that you might just be encouraging some "anti-foreigner" sentiment with your "race to the bottom" argument and that that's why you shout critics down.
In your post (which everyone can check, I think it's message #42 here) you twice wrote about multinationals moving workers round Europe to undermine workers' established conditions.
Besides the passage I quoted about:

a multinational bringing in cheaper labour that replaces local labour and undermines all workers as a result - it all becomes enshrined in the 'law' of the treaty.

you also wrote:

a multinational moves groups of non-unionised workers around europe in an attempt to undermine conditions fought for and agreed in the past with the unionised workforce they replace.

I know that, when challenged, you will put up a defence on trade union grounds but I still say such talk is dangerous. And in the context of the referendum was scaremongering: vote Yes and multinationals will start moving workers from Europe into Ireland to undermine your wages and conditions.

 

[Idris2002]

And if you read the actual post I posted - quite clearly in the context of the GAMA dispute in ireland - a campaign in the support of those non-irish workers, uniting them with irish workers being led by SP members alongside those same workers - and the Lindsey dispute in the UK you may wish to apologise for the shameful distortion of what was actually said. "scaring people with the influx of non-irish labour" my arse.

You and honesty don't go that well together though do they? wanker...

Not much point interacting with a liar, Dennis.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Not much point interacting with a liar, Dennis.

Yep. Poisonous little shit, cheerleading for the assembled Irish ruling class.

 

[Idris2002]

Yep. Poisonous little shit, cheerleading for the assembled Irish ruling class.

In Ireland today it's the poisonous little shits who call the shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see Michael O'Leary in govt. some day.

 

[gosub]

In Ireland today it's the poisonous little shits who call the shots. I wouldn't be surprised to see Michael O'Leary in govt. some day.

No he just wants control of Aer Lingus

 

[Jean-Luc]

cheerleading for the assembled Irish ruling class.

That's rich coming from someone who's just finished cheerleading for the backward sections of the Irish ruling class, as represented by Sinn Féin and Declan Gangley, who want to go back to the state of affairs that existed before the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965 when the Irish government had the power to put up tariff barriers to protect local Irish industry from foreign competition.

And don't say this isn't your perspective too as, during the referendum campaign, you made a big point of saying that, if an anti-privatisation government was elected in Ireland (as you want), under Lisbon it wouldn't be able to stop the privatisation of health and education. And how else would you be able to stop multinationals "bringing in cheaper labour"?

 

[rekil]

'Gangley'. That's the icing on the shit.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That's rich coming from someone who's just finished cheerleading for the backward sections of the Irish ruling class

No significant section of the Irish ruling class opposes Lisbon. IBEC, ISME, SFA, IFA, ACoC, DCoC, CCoC, every federation, large and small, of the Irish capitalist class was fervently for a Yes vote. Ganley represents nothing but himself - he's a rich maverick.

Still, as already pointed out by Idris, there's no point in having a debate with a liar so I'll leave you to suck up to the Irish ruling class in peace.

 

[butchersapron]

'Gangley'. That's the icing on the shit.

Shut it paedo.

 

[rekil]

Shut it paedo.

Is this 'rational discussion' or 'infantile argument'? I'lll see what scary SF say and take the opposite position, maybe, ooh I just don't know.

 

[8den]

Is this 'rational discussion' or 'infantile argument'? I'lll see what scary SF say and take the opposite position, maybe, ooh I just don't know.

It's completely inconceivable to you for anyone to have a different opinion to you, I can almost hear the crackling of circuit boards frying, and smoke coming out of your ears "Buzzzz ZZZrrrrr Error, does not compute!"

 

[Jean-Luc]

Irritable, if you won't deal with the arguments that I'm putting forward on the trumped-up charge that I'm a liar, perhaps you will condescend to deal with the argument as put forward by your fellow Trotskyist, "Bolshevik":

You put forward the nationalist-reformist argument that the Lisbon Treaty would make it 'more difficult for mass protest and popular pressure in countries to challenge developments in the EU by pressurising their elected governments' (...).
The majority of Europe's capitalists favour a 'Yes' vote. However, a significant minority of the bourgeoisie across Europe advocate 'No', represented in Ireland by Sinn Fein, the likes of Declan Ganley, and recently the UK Independence Party, which spent €180,000 on posting a 'No' vote leaflet to every household in Ireland. A 'No' vote in these circumstances buys into the petty nationalism represented by Sinn Fein and the trade-union bureaucracy.

Our "spoil your ballot" tactic means we get to focus on something we think is very important - the class struggle against the bosses without getting sucked into the reformist nationalism that has infected most of the Vote No campaign.

Or is he a poisonous little shit too?

 

[dennisr]

Joe's Speech in the European Parliament on the outcome of the Lisbon Referendum 07-10-09:

 

[8den]

The number of job cuts that appear to have been held off until the referendum passed is into the high 4 figures. Aer Linugus, Bord Na Mona, O'Briens, Intel and GE have all announced either job loses or closures, this week already.

 

[rekil]

It's completely inconceivable to you for anyone to have a different opinion to you, I can almost hear the crackling of circuit boards frying, and smoke coming out of your ears "Buzzzz ZZZrrrrr Error, does not compute!"

The bullshitter's mantra. The vacuous nonsense about SF was poor enough but that you had absolutely no idea what the referendum turnout figures were or usually are, that you knew nothing about the clause obliging Ireland to beef up its military until Nigel had to spoonfeed you, while at the same time you were shouting about how someone else knew nothing about the treaty or how our referendums work just serves to illustrate the sheer worthlessness of your opinions on this subject. The problem here is that you're attempting to argue from a position of laughable political illiteracy, misbegotten conceit and useless liberal guilt. And it's just not good enough young man. Like your crap insults, it is literally schoolboy level stuff.

Swells (RIP) and I once had a discussion about some new ways to describe Bono and his flaccid posturing, one we came up with was "a runt kitten trying to act hard". That's what comes to mind here I'm afraid. This is what we're up against comrades.