Lisbon Treaty Referendum in Ireland (Again)

[8den]

It isn't me that made the rules !

And astonishingly the rules get more and more complex the more countries that join the EU.

I am pro EU, I have personally benefitted by the free market, have worked in other EU countries and my former partner does now. Our child is a European!!

But I am not for a United States of Europe, nor for a common defence force.

And since the Lisbon treaty doesn't create either of these things I can't understand your opposition to it.

Less of the insults please, it's not really necessary is it?

Yes actually it is. You clearly don't seem to understand how referendums work in Ireland, or what the Lisbon treaty actually does and doesn't do. So simple question, we had several referendums on divorce before it carried, should we have let the divorce ban stand in Ireland, because of the first vote?

 

[weltweit]

And since the Lisbon treaty doesn't create either of these things I can't understand your opposition to it.

No, you suggested that I was anti EU and I countered to say what my position was, the comments were not about the Lisbon treaty but about my general views on the EU.

I do not know a great deal of the details of the Lisbon treaty, I am not being asked to vote on it so I don't need to know, for the time being.

Yes actually it is. You clearly don't seem to understand how referendums work in Ireland, or what the Lisbon treaty actually does and doesn't do. So simple question, we had several referendums on divorce before it carried, should we have let the divorce ban stand in Ireland, because of the first vote?

No, there is never any need to use insulting language.

As to your point about multiple referendums I think a suitable period of time should pass before the voters are asked AGAIN ... on any issue.

 

[rekil]

No, there is never any need to use insulting language.

There is no prejudice so strong as that which arises from a fancied exemption from all prejudice. - William Hazlitt.

 

[rekil]

I also like Shinners who had an active paramilitary wing just a few years ago, are worried about an over militarised Europe.

Yeah, and they're nationalist socialists etc etc.

 

[8den]

Yeah, and they're nationalist socialists etc etc.

I don't know what this irrelevant tangent is more. Absurd? Pointless? Obtuse? Idiotic? All of the above?


Weirdly Copliker I find it hypocritical that a political party who's unofficial motto for most of my life time was the armalite and ballot box strategy, lecturing me on a militarised Europe. A political party who's MEP refused to consider the murder of mother a crime? Who have actively campaigned for the release of three bank robbing cop killers? A political party that campaigned against the war in iraq, but cozied up to Bush for a photo op? That opposed Bin Charges across Ireland, except when they voted for them in Sligo?

But hey, way to go try shove words into my mouth in an attempt to make me defend a position I never took.

There is no prejudice so strong as that which arises from a fancied exemption from all prejudice. - William Hazlitt.

Thats nice n all except for your well documented attempts to drag up old arguments, and engage in vicious ad-hominems. Don't try and take the moral high ground copliker, you'd get altitude sickness.

 

[Idris2002]

I'm not going to defend the Shinners, but the Irish state that allowed the imperialists to use Shannon airport as a transit point for the extraordinary rendition system isn't in much of a moral position to criticise them.

Looks like it's going to be a hefty win for the Yes side - I thought they'd win, but I didn't anticipate this sort of landslide.

What's the Irish for 'la lutte continue'?

 

[8den]

No, you suggested that I was anti EU and I countered to say what my position was, the comments were not about the Lisbon treaty but about my general views on the EU.

I do not know a great deal of the details of the Lisbon treaty, I am not being asked to vote on it so I don't need to know, for the time being.

Ah so demanding Ireland take a position on something that doesn't do what you are afraid of, makes complete sense to you?

No, there is never any need to use insulting language.

Tends to cut the crap IMO.

As to your point about multiple referendums I think a suitable period of time should pass before the voters are asked AGAIN ... on any issue.

And what is your definition of a suitable period? Do you know about some of the changes to the treaty since the last referendum?

 

[8den]

I'm not going to defend the Shinners, but the Irish state that allowed the imperialists to use Shannon airport as a transit point for the extraordinary rendition system isn't in much of a moral position to criticise them.

And it's not like the Greens didn't cave on that, and every other substantive point before they took government.

 

[rekil]

I don't know what this irrelevant tangent is more. Absurd? Pointless? Obtuse? Idiotic? All of the above?

It was a reference to the sort of asinine politically illiterate comments made by your lot about SF's opposition to the citizenship referendum, that's all. I found it particularly amusing since you came out with this rubbish.

Neither side seems capable of rational discussion of the treaty and prefer hysterical scaremongering and infantile arguments, it makes me despair for the entire political process in my homeland.

Thats nice n all except for your well documented attempts to drag up old arguments, and engage in vicious ad-hominems. Don't try and take the moral high ground copliker, you'd get altitude sickness.

I fear you've missed the point once again. What's wrong with vicious ad hominems anyway? You just said insults tend to cut through the crap.

 

[8den]

It was a reference to the sort of asinine politically illiterate comments made by your lot about SF's opposition to the citizenship referendum, that's all. I found it particularly amusing since you came out with this rubbish.

And the citizenship referendum matters here because? SF have a track record of trying to sweep up the left wing vote, but tend to be a little more, shall we say, pragmatic, when it comes to decisions when they have a little power. Like health privatization in NI.

You get really offended that any Irish person has a different opinion than you. It's a very obnoxious personality trait.

I fear you've missed the point once again. What's wrong with vicious ad hominems anyway? You just said insults tend to cut through the crap.

I found it amusing that you were trying to quote Hazlitt, as if you were the type of poster who would never dignify insulting language, or drag up old arguments.

 

[agricola]

One does wonder about the genuineness of some of those "No" arguments - after all, its not as if there werent easily available, logical and demonstrable arguments for voting no in the first place.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

One does wonder about the genuineness of some of those "No" arguments - after all, its not as if there werent easily available, logical and demonstrable arguments for voting no in the first place.

Almost all of the insane No arguments came from Coir, a tiny but noisy group of ultra-Catholics lunatics. Coir have the support of zero of the 200 or so No supporting elected TDs, MEPs and councillors and somewhere between 1% and 5% of the No activists on the ground. They were a complete irrelevance, given prominence in the (entirely Yes supporting) media precisely because they were saying crazy things.

 

[Idris2002]

Almost all of the insane No arguments came from Coir, a tiny but noisy group of ultra-Catholics lunatics. Coir have the support of zero of the 200 or so No supporting elected TDs, MEPs and councillors and somewhere between 1% and 5% of the No activists on the ground. They were a complete irrelevance, given prominence in the (entirely Yes supporting) media precisely because they were saying crazy things.

Earlier today on the Six O'Clock news I saw the eejit newswoman accuse Joe Higgins of scaremongering over 'conscription and abortion' - neither of which Joe H. argued for, but which were part of the Cóir bill of fare.

 

[weltweit]

... And what is your definition of a suitable period? Do you know about some of the changes to the treaty since the last referendum?

I think there should be a break of a couple of parliaments between the electorate being asked the same question AGAIN.

 

[8den]

I think there should be a break of a couple of parliaments between the electorate being asked the same question AGAIN.

Seeing as both the governing body and a parliament has changed since last referendum your point is completely moot.

 

[Jean-Luc]

So, the Irish have voted down the retreat into petty nationalism proposed by the unholy alliance of Irish Republicans, Catholic fundamentalists and Trotskyists. Good, as far as it goes (which isn't very far).
I liked the full page ad taken out by Ryanair which said: "A YES VOTE WILL P*SS OFF SINN FEIN, JOE HIGGINS & DECLAN GANLEY". Hope they are.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'm not at all surprised to see you cheering on the most viciously anti-worker's rights employer in Ireland.

By the way, there was no alliance between the small fraction of the Catholic Right which called for a No vote and the main, left leaning, No campaign. No joint events, no joint publications, no joint meetings and whenever the tiny and irrelevant Cóir group were brought up in interviews, the Socialist Party was vigorously critical of them and rejected their arguments.

 

[krtek a houby]

When we voted "no", a while back, I was getting all sorts of congratulations over here - like we had scored a triumphal win over the EU or something. People delighting in our "democratic choice".

Now, I'm hearing stuff (on other sites) like how the Irish were "stupid" and we want to be ruled by Blair (???) for choosing "yes".

Are congrats and talk of democracy only valid when the vote goes one way, so?

 

[8den]

Are congrats and talk of democracy only valid when the vote goes one way, so?

Considering the turn out for the first vote was 15.5% and the second was 21% either side talking abot a democratic mandate is talking out of their arse.

 

[krtek a houby]

Considering the turn out for the first vote was 15.5% and the second was 21% either side talking abot a democratic mandate is talking out of their arse.

But what's the incentive to come out and vote. You never get the entire country out en masse.

It's the best we can hope for. Unless voting is made mandatory, of course...

 

[8den]

But what's the incentive to come out and vote. You never get the entire country out en masse.

It's the best we can hope for. Unless voting is made mandatory, of course...

Thats crap the incentive to vote is whether the issue at hand matters to the electorate. Whats been conclusive about both of these referendums is the vast majority of Irish voters don't really believe the hysteria that is being spread by the No and Yes campaigns, it's a ringing endorsement of the casual apathy that is endemic in Ireland.

 

[krtek a houby]

Thats crap the incentive to vote is whether the issue at hand matters to the electorate. Whats been conclusive about both of these referendums is the vast majority of Irish voters don't really believe the hysteria that is being spread by the No and Yes campaigns, it's a ringing endorsement of the casual apathy that is endemic in Ireland.

Apathy? yeah, we're pretty fucking good at that. Last I looked, at any rate.

Don' give a fuck no more.

 

[8den]

Apathy? yeah, we're pretty fucking good at that. Last I looked, at any rate.

Don' give a fuck no more.

The fact that Cowen can dare show his face in public when's barely out of double digit approval ratings (11% at last count) Christ Nixon was in the low 30's when he was run out of office.

 

[krtek a houby]

The fact that Cowen can dare show his face in public when's barely out of double digit approval ratings (11% at last count) Christ Nixon was in the low 30's when he was run out of office.

My Sis was telling me that FF are destroying the country at the moment; getting rid of child benefit, messing with healthcare, taking funding out of education and the like. Sounds awful. I used to keep up with politics back home but am so disillusioned the last year.

It's the latest in a line of crap things about my country that piss me off. Why do people vote for FF or the blueshirts anyway?

 

[8den]

My Sis was telling me that FF are destroying the country at the moment; getting rid of child benefit, messing with healthcare, taking funding out of education and the like. Sounds awful. I used to keep up with politics back home but am so disillusioned the last year.

It's the latest in a line of crap things about my country that piss me off. Why do people vote for FF or the blueshirts anyway?

Oh christ fuck knows, but the electoral maths of the Irish makes me want to weep. Island of Saints n Scholars? Piss off. Island of small minded corrupt bureaucrats more like.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Considering the turn out for the first vote was 15.5% and the second was 21% either side talking abot a democratic mandate is talking out of their arse.

I think you have those figures wrong. Turnout in the first referendum was 54% and for the second was 58%.

 

[rekil]

Thats crap the incentive to vote is whether the issue at hand matters to the electorate. Whats been conclusive about both of these referendums is the vast majority of Irish voters don't really believe the hysteria that is being spread by the No and Yes campaigns, it's a ringing endorsement of the casual apathy that is endemic in Ireland.

When asked how you would've voted you said...

I honestly don't know.

This sort of cowardly nonsense doesn't exactly set any sort of example does it. You might want to consider taking a good look at yourself and your own crappy non-politics before tut tutting at the stupid proles and their casual apathy. And you even got the turnout figures arseways. Hopeless. But pretty funny for all that.

 

[8den]

This sort of cowardly nonsense doesn't exactly set any sort of example does it. You might want to consider taking a good look at yourself and your own crappy non-politics before tut tutting at the stupid proles and their casual apathy. And you even got the turnout figures arseways. Hopeless. But pretty funny for all that.

Hey copliker, did you make the effort to go home and vote? No? shut the fuck up criticising my ambivalence then. I was unsure of how to vote, you had a clear position yet didn't bother to exercise your democratic right. In really simple terms, I was unsure of the issue and didn't vote, you felt sure yet didn't vote. And you have the audacity to call "me" a coward? Jesus what a contemptible hypocrite. You're a fucking moron on a good day, on this you're a utter retard. Or do you think someone should vote no matter what, and take a kneejerk reaction on a referendum and make an irrational decision. As idiotic as you come off most days on this forum, are you actually suggesting that someone should vote on a constitutional amendment no matter what? That if they feel both sides are producing dishonest arguments, that it's "cowardice" to be ambivalently about the issues, when both sides are misrepresenting the debate? Are you that fucking thick? What are you Biff Tanning, and think I'm Marty Mc Fly. You're about as useful as a screen door on a battleship so make like a tree and leave this debate you simple minded child.

 

[8den]

I think you have those figures wrong. Turnout in the first referendum was 54% and for the second was 58%.

Yes you're right, I was taking the figures from a guardian piece this morning. Hangover+Gruadian bad mix.

 

[rekil]

Hey copliker, did you make the effort to go home and vote? No?

Eh? Yes I did. Where did you get this rubbish from? As it happens, I don't have any problem with people being unable to get home to vote, or even being too unarsed to participate in the whole charade. However I do have a problem with bullshitting nuisances with no politics at all posing as disinterested observers.

Has 8den 'lost it' perchance?