Lindsey German to challenge Red Ken

[Fisher_Gate]

There are two good reasons for standing against Livingstone - their initials are JR and RO'N.

 

[JoePolitix]

I don't hate abstract debate, i love it. I do hate people trying to use that term that as a cover for their feeble minded lack of political bottle. If you think voting for a mayor who calls for people to scab on strikes is in the interests of the london working class or for a party that's imposed the conditions that are leading to the growth of the far-right, or if you think that not pointing this out to the knuckle-heads who think the labour party is in some sense on our side is acceptable and realistic then frankly, you've learnt nothing politically from the last 20 years and you're probably incapable of learning anything poltically over the next 20 years.

Concrete answer - labour/lib dem/tory, they'll all seek to impose the same conditions under pressure from global capital, esp under the competition that contemporary capitalism has placed large international cities under. Get cracking on building local networks and communities - not old trot and stalinist internal battles. Fuck your left.

What I have learnt in the last 20 years is that loud mouths on message boards who do the whole "smash the system" mantra generally have fuck all to actually say. I like Livingstone (warts and all), I don't like you or any ultra lefts or anarcokiddies for that matter - useless waste of space the lot of ya

 

[butchersapron]

Did i say smash the system? No i did not. I said build up counter-communities and networks. What i've learnt over the last 20 years is that trots hiding in the labour party and stalinists clinging to the union bureaucracies have brought the working class nothing but wasted years - but out they come every single election no matter what the conditions (how asbract is that?) to try and put the kybosh on anyone trying to break the vote-labour spell. Oddly enough, they spend the time inbetween criticisng labour in the most vehement terms their narrowed little dictionary can come up with. Imperialists, warmongers, islamophobes - but Imperialists, warmongers, islamophobes that you should, of course, vote for.

 

[JoePolitix]

Did i say smash the system? No i did not. I said build up counter-communities and networks. What i've learnt over the last 20 years is that trots hiding in the labour party and stalinists clinging to the union bureaucracies have brought the working class nothing but wasted years - but out they come every single election no matter what the conditions (how asbract is that?) to try and put the kybosh on anyone trying to break the vote-labour spell. Oddly enough, they spend the time inbetween criticisng labour in the most vehement terms their narrowed little dictionary can come up with. Imperialists, warmongers, islamophobes - but Imperialists, warmongers, islamophobes that you should, of course, vote for.

And what have your "counter-communities" achieved? Answers on a post card please.

I support Livingstone because I think he has overall been good for London and the improvements to the environment and public transport have been benificial to Londoners - particularly working class Londoners. I also think his positions on the war, climate change, Venezuela, trident and so forth have opened up spaces for progressive politics in London.

I'm not uncritical though - as I've already stated his call to cross picket lines is unjustifiable but I think there have been achievements and I'm pleased theres London has a mayor that really pisses off the tories.

 

[butchersapron]

And what have your "counter-communities" achieved? Answers on a post card please.

I support Livingstone because I think he has overall been good for London and the improvements to the environment and public transport have been benificial to Londoners - particularly the working class. I also think his positions on the war, climate change, Venezuela, trident and so forth have opened up spaces for progressive politics in London.

I'm not uncritical though - as I've already stated his call to cross picket lines is unjustifiable but I think there have been achievements and I'm pleased theres London has a mayor that really pisses off the tories.

Imagine how many other things on top of your rather piss-poor list could have made by someone not in-hoc to a variety of financial donors, big business, political clients and blackmailers. Oh no, i forgot, you can't because it's Vote for Livingstone of be condemned as ultra-left or anarchist trash. That's all the political options that are open to people. Such crass political crudity is rarley encountered nowadays.

Your uncriticality about his call to scab must worry him - more than your call to vote for him do you think?

 

[butchersapron]

I say again - "Ken" bleurgh *vomit* - it's all wrapped up nicely in that little smug usage.

 

[junius]

There are two good reasons for standing against Livingstone - their initials are JR and RO'N.

Is this a reference to your former comrades in the IMG?

Bitterness towards these two people is not sufficient reason for standing against Yellow Ken. After all the MP for Bethnal Green has a rather bigger bank balance than these two scoundrels combined - and even worse politics.

Surely, the fact that Ken scabbed on an RMT strike ought to be the pretext for a workers' candidate, standing on socialist politics, to be debated in the movement. The electoral system - SV, not STV - doesn't present any obstacles to this.

Unfortunately, German will stand on a set of populist platitudes that make her candidacy pointless from the point of viewing of advancing working class politics.

Someone like Greg Tucker of the RMT might make an excellent candidate perhaps.

 

[JoePolitix]

Imagine how many other things on top of your rather piss-poor list could have made by someone not in-hoc to a variety of financial donors, big business, political clients and blackmailers. Oh no, i forgot, you can't because it's Vote for Livingstone of be condemned as ultra-left or anarchist trash. That's all the political options that are open to people. Such crass political crudity is rarley encountered nowadays.

Your uncriticality about his call to scab must worry him - more than your call to vote for him do you think?

Go on then make unspecified allegations, discard anything progressive, retreat into your own "pure" bubble, feel good about yourself.

You're harmless enough I suppose.

 

[butchersapron]

Go on then make unspecified allegations, discard anything progressive, retreat into your own "pure" bubble, feel good about yourself.

You're harmless enough I suppose.

Unlike the people you demand that others vote for and keep voting for now and forever and ever amen.

You don't actually have autonomous politics beyond 1) please stop the tories getting in and 2) please get rid of the tories.

And all the time inbetween, no matter what the social conditions you'll slag labour off from here to tommorow. For killing people, for putting in place conditions that kill working class people - but still vote them when it comes down to it.

Yes, i'm harmless enough - it's people like you that we need to be wary of.

 

[butchersapron]

This is where he has you and people like you by the fucking balls - he issues a call to scab. You say vote for him, but don't agree with that bit in your head. The jesuits call that mental reservation. You knowingly tell a lie but don't believe it in your mind. This is where this self-denying logic leads. Principles? Tell me about them joe?

 

[poster342002]

I'll vote for an IWCA candidate if the party still exists but not Ken. I'd rather spoil my ballot paper.

I'm with Keyboardjockey on this. The left is still in a state of idiotic confusion and muddleheadedness over Ken.

I don't support RESPECT but, ironically, standing against him is the first thing they've come out with that I broadly sympathise and agree with. However, the rest of their ghastly politics puts me off voting for them, either. So, it'll be the IWCA for me if they stand - and an abstention if they don't.

I also will not support any cadidate who advocates cutting services such as refuse-collection using greenist cover emulsified with a leftist gloss. This is utterly shite and only in the UK would the pseudo-bougeoise left remain deafeningly silent on it or - even worse - cheer it on.

 

[JoePolitix]

Unlike the people you demand that others vote for and keep voting for now and forever and ever amen.

You don't actually have autonomous politics beyond 1) please stop the tories getting in and 2) please get rid of the tories.

And all the time inbetween, no matter what the social conditions you'll slag labour off from here to tommorow. For killing people, for putting in place conditions that kill working class people - but still vote them when it comes down to it.

Yes, i'm harmless enough - it's people like you that we need to be wary of.

You seem to be implying that Livingstone is some sort of warmonger. In fact he is a prominent voice in the anti-war movement. He has backed CND in their efforts against a renewed trident, argued against nuclear power, spoke against Israel’s invasion of Lebanon and supports the Venezuelan revolution.

His policies on transport and the environment have been of benefit to Londoners, particularly poor Londoners, and these are policies that have been opposed by the tories and the rightwing media.

I’m not ashamed to say I support him and hope he gives the Tories a well deserved kicking. The alternative would be a major victory for the right who are trying to dislodge him because of his defence of multi-culturalism.

I wish you the best of luck in building your counter communities though.

 

[JoePolitix]

This is where he has you and people like you by the fucking balls - he issues a call to scab. You say vote for him, but don't agree with that bit in your head. The jesuits call that mental reservation. You knowingly tell a lie but don't believe it in your mind. This is where this self-denying logic leads. Principles? Tell me about them joe?

From cod politics to cod psychology already eh?

If I only ever supported people I agreed with 100% of the time I wouldn't support anybody. I'd probably give up on politics and move into a squat with a bunch of zapitistas in white overalls or something.

 

[butchersapron]

From cod politics to cod psychology already eh?

If I only ever supported people I agreed with 100% of the time I wouldn't support anybody. I'd probably give up on politics and move into a squat with a bunch of zapitistas in white overalls or something.

Supporting people that you don't agree with 100% doesn't necessarily entail supporting scabs though does it nor does it give you carte blanche to support anyone you like. That's your own choice - that's your own personal hypocrisy, to support scabs and the labour party you slag to fuck outside of elections. Be sure to tell Ken this when you give him your vote. I'm sure he cares.

 

[butchersapron]

You seem to be implying that Livingstone is some sort of warmonger. In fact he is a prominent voice in the anti-war movement. He has backed CND in their efforts against a renewed trident, argued against nuclear power, spoke against Israel’s invasion of Lebanon and supports the Venezuelan revolution.

His policies on transport and the environment have been of benefit to Londoners, particularly poor Londoners, and these are policies that have been opposed by the tories and the rightwing media.

I’m not ashamed to say I support him and hope he gives the Tories a well deserved kicking. The alternative would be a major victory for the right who are trying to dislodge him because of his defence of multi-culturalism.

I wish you the best of luck in building your counter communities though.

Red herring #1, Livinsgtone doesn't support the war. But he reamins a member of that party that has imposed that war and is in fact the leading international face of that party after Blair. It's like saying vote Brown, he doesn't support the war but leas the party that does. It's more mental reservation. Just be honest Joe.

You should be ashamed to say that you support him, given that you're supporting an agenda desgined to block and negate any independent working class politics developing and that puts in the place the conditions for the BNP and associated far-right groups to thrive. You keep on with your scared-shitless obsession with the tories though - ignoring the fact that you're calling for a vote for the exact same agenda. What more do they have to do to wake you up?

 

[JoePolitix]

Red herring #1, Livinsgtone doesn't support the war. But he reamins a member of that party that has imposed that war and is in fact the leading international face of that party after Blair. It's like saying vote Brown, he doesn't support the war but leas the party that does. It's more mental reservation. Just be honest Joe.

You should be ashamed to say that you support him, given that you're supporting an agenda desgined to block and negate any independent working class politics developing and that puts in the place the conditions for the BNP and associated far-right groups to thrive. You keep on with your scared-shitless obsession with the tories though - ignoring the fact that you're calling for a vote for the exact same agenda. What more do they have to do to wake you up?

Your sectarianism knows no bounds does it? Livingstone is a member of the Labour Party therefore he supports the war – presumably then Tony Benn, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Harry Cohen are all “pro-war” aswell? Labour against War is pro-war? Walter Wolfgang is pro-war?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,896437,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/12/nbush12.xml

Care to explain how Livingstone has contributed to the rise of the BNP? And you’ll have to do better than the old third period “social fascist” argument to convince me. I can’t think of a British politician with a more consistent anti racist track record than Livingstone.

http://www.risefestival.org/

I’ve already explained in a number of posts that I think Livingstone’s agenda is quite different from the tories. A fact that anyone other than a died-in-the-wool sectarian would know is obvious.

 

[butchersapron]

Your sectarianism knows no bounds does it? Livingstone is a member of the Labour Party therefore he supports the war – presumably then Tony Benn, Corbyn, Jeremy, John McDonnell and Harry Cohen are all “pro-war” aswell? Labour against War is pro-war? Walter Wolfgang is pro-war?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,896437,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/12/nbush12.xml

Care to explain how Livingstone has contributed to the rise of the BNP? And you’ll have to do better than the old third period “social fascist” argument to convince me. I can’t think of a British politician with a more consistent anti racist track record than Livingstone.

http://www.risefestival.org/

I’ve already explained in a number of posts that I think Livingstone’s agenda is quite different from the tories. A fact that anyone other than a died-in-the-wool sectarian would know is obvious.

I am sectarian number 1. For not voting Labour and pointing out the inconsistencies of some people who do. Yes, people like Benn, Corybn etc support a a pro-war party. They migh,t like you, go on and on about their personal opposition to that war, but when it comes time to be weighed they bottle it and support those that made and continue that war.

How has 'Ken' contributed to the rise of the far right - by imposing the neo-liberal conditions necessary to compete in todays modern world, the break up of social housing, imposing the freeze on resouces for on-the-ground initiatives. By offering no alternative whatsoever. That's how.

I didn't call him racist - he's clearly not. But it's a piece of piss to be formally anti-racist whilst running an institutionaly racist group. Politicains manage it - or have you given up on your islamophobia campaign?

 

[JoePolitix]

How has 'Ken' contributed to the rise of the far right - by imposing the neo-liberal conditions necessary to compete in todays modern world, the break up of social housing, imposing the freeze on resouces for on-the-ground initiatives. By offering no alternative whatsoever. That's how.

London, like the rest of the country, is undoubtably suffering a housing crisis - but I think you laying the blame at Livingstone's door and portraying him as launching an assault on social housing is as dishonest as your attempts to portray him as "objectively" pro-war.

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_release.jsp?releaseid=10269

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6430899.stm

 

[butchersapron]

London, like the rest of the country, is undoubtably suffering a housing crisis - but I think you laying the blame at Livingstone's door and portraying him as launching an assault on social housing is as dishonest as your attempts to portray him as "objectively" pro-war.

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_release.jsp?releaseid=10269

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6430899.stm

A 'ken' press relaese - great! And a PR released part of a spech by 'Ken', Amazing. Vote Labour.

 

[JoePolitix]

Ratther undermines your implication that Livingstone is leading the assault on social housing though doesn't it?

As for your "a vote for labour is a vote for racism" line, heres a more nuanced analysis:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2053341,00.html

 

[butchersapron]

Not really, considering that wasn't my claim at all. Must you really turn every word into a lie. Fair play to him for that, but in the wider context it's meaningless when put against his parties wider assault on social housing.


Islamexpo - say no more

 

[JoePolitix]

Not really, considering that wasn't my claim at all. Must you really turn every word into a lie. Fair play to him for that, but in the wider context it's meaningless when put against his parties wider assault on social housing.

Islamexpo - say no more

I thought this bit was particularly good:

Experience shows that parties of the centre-left, though they might veer towards the right, tend to remain more liberal, pluralistic and sensitive to the needs of minorities and underprivileged groups in society. Labour has been greatly weakened by the string of blunders and disasters into which Blair has dragged it. But Labour is not reducible to Blair, nor to the Blairites - it remains an umbrella of different forces, including trade unions, radicals, ethnic minorities, peace activists. It would be unthinkable, for example, to find such figures as Tony Benn, Ken Livingstone, or Diane Abbott in the Conservative party. There, the choice is between grey and greyer, right and ultra right, Cameron and Tebbit.

 

[butchersapron]

You might - it only exposes your own hard won lack of politics and the reliance on others though. Negatively. a) get rid of the tories b) stop the tories getting in. You have no actual politics.

 

[JoePolitix]

Ok torres I think I'll leave it there. I have enjoyed this exchange though - you're quick witted and a good writer (shame your politics suck though).

Look forward to exchanges in the future

 

[butchersapron]

Fair dos