Libertarian Socialism. Bollocks or What?
- Thread starter tbaldwin
- Start date
rhys gethin said:
The whole Class acting together sounds quite dramatic....Are you a teacher?
Most of The Left have totally rejected the idea of the masses in control...Including those who laughably like to call themselves Libertarian Socialists.
They would much rather have snob rule than yob rule........Me im down with the Yobs.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Fruitloop said:
He'll take that as a compliment!
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
greenman said:Tedious old Leninist attacks on Bakunin do not a coherent critique make.
One would have thought we would not need to point out to "self styled" Marxists that not all those calling themselves libertarian socialists are anarchists, and still less treat Bakunin as any kind of guru. ("I am not a Marxist" - Karl Marx)
IMO one of the greatest criticisms that can be made of Bakunin was his indulgence of Nechaev. Now Nechaev, when you look at his moral and practical stance, appears to have much more in common with modern day Leninists (and particularly Trotskyists, judging from their current behaviour towards erstwhile comrades in Scotland) than any libertarian socialists I have come across. The end justifies the means, indeed....
And the CPGB and pals lecturing people about "democracy"!
Truly, as the Paris Situationists would say, some people 'speak with a corpse in their mouths'....
Bakunin is an attractive figure to read and has some great fire-and-brimstone rhetoric - his apocalyptic imagery is much to my taste, but surely in real life he was an incredible elitist and a raving anti-semite, I would argue that Hal Draper's critique is pretty much factually based. Proudhon was more of a proto-fascist a precursor of Mussolini.
For my mind, the most interesting people who might be classed as libertarian socialists would be Murray Bookchin (the only anarchist theoretician of any rigour, but a bit weak on concrete tactics and strategy imo, but very stimulating and ahead of the time in being an eco-socialist), Peter Avrich (his historical work like "The Russian Anarchists" is very useful in documenting the concrete problems and debates around implementing workers control), Victor Serge, Daniel Guerin and some of the stuff that came out of Paris 1968. Also the ideas around radical education: Paulo Freire, Ivan Illich et al
Personally, I think some sort of synthesis of the best of libertarian/anarchist thought with class struggle marxism orientated to the working class would be quite good.
greenman said:Heh heh heh
Thats the image lurking at the edge of consciousness when he posts on here, I knew someone would pinpoint it eventually.....
Im not saying your shallow but er erm er erm er erm....Alf Garnett and me eh.....Crikey anybody who disagrees with the orthodox left on some issues simply has to be Alf dont they????????
"Personally, I think some sort of synthesis of the best of libertarian/anarchist thought with class struggle marxism orientated to the working class would be quite good."
Yes - how you reconcile that with Leninism or Trotskyism however, I don't know. And there's no such thing as a "libertarian leninism" - trust me, I tried to find it.
Yes - how you reconcile that with Leninism or Trotskyism however, I don't know. And there's no such thing as a "libertarian leninism" - trust me, I tried to find it.
mk12 said:"Personally, I think some sort of synthesis of the best of libertarian/anarchist thought with class struggle marxism orientated to the working class would be quite good."
Yes - how you reconcile that with Leninism or Trotskyism however, I don't know. And there's no such thing as a "libertarian leninism" - trust me, I tried to find it.
True, I understand that was the quest that Red Action set out on, and it led to the IWCA.
Personally, I think that what is needed in British circumstances is a lot more cross-fertilisation of political traditions, along with a lot more attention to the tasks in hand and the real demands of the situations we face in everyday life.
I am very enthusiastic that the gradual building of a mass movement over the NHS situation, the nodding of the main parties towards ecological issues without actually offering any radical solutions, continuing dissatisfaction with the wars, and the maturing of the movement against climate change offer the best objective conditions for growth of a diverse radical movement in Britain for many years.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
10th Party Conference
Have you got anything on the 10th Party Conference; Vagualey remember seeing something Katkov and Shuckman (St. Anthonys College Maybe), can't find any minutes of it anywhere, apart from a bit in Solidarity Pamphlets. Çould you help us out with this one????kropotkin said:
greenman said:What a vast ocean of ideas the four letter word "some" can encompass!
Do you support the Hammers, TB?
Actually , it's not your politics that most brings to mind Alf.
1 Itstrue
2 Its not true
3 Youve seen my picture....I drew it meself.....But they dont let me have any sharp pencils.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Withering Away Of Reality????
Withering Away Of The State?????
(State & Revolution)
Could be argued(wrongly as far as I can see) that after Dictatorship Of The Proletariat has been established between first and second stage of the socialist program a self destruct mechanism would be established within the socialist state.
Incidentely, off the point but not too much. The relationship between Malatestas Ideas & the position taken by Lenin in Stae & Revolution.
The bound and self- infirmed body not being able to deal with the bandages being taken off without falling to the ground, but being beneficial to the patient: shadows of light on the cave wall without being able to stare directly into the Sun?(From Aristotle I Think): The idea of an Anarchist Party?
I'm not saying that they are directly the same, but there are similarities.
mk12 said:"Personally, I think some sort of synthesis of the best of libertarian/anarchist thought with class struggle marxism orientated to the working class would be quite good."
Yes - how you reconcile that with Leninism or Trotskyism however, I don't know. And there's no such thing as a "libertarian leninism" - trust me, I tried to find it.
Withering Away Of The State?????
(State & Revolution)
Could be argued(wrongly as far as I can see) that after Dictatorship Of The Proletariat has been established between first and second stage of the socialist program a self destruct mechanism would be established within the socialist state.
Incidentely, off the point but not too much. The relationship between Malatestas Ideas & the position taken by Lenin in Stae & Revolution.
The bound and self- infirmed body not being able to deal with the bandages being taken off without falling to the ground, but being beneficial to the patient: shadows of light on the cave wall without being able to stare directly into the Sun?(From Aristotle I Think): The idea of an Anarchist Party?
I'm not saying that they are directly the same, but there are similarities.
State & Revo was a bit of a 'freak' book wasn;t it? Arguably the only 'libertarian' work by Lenin (and that's because all he did was quote Marx and Engels throughout). How much of the S&R programme did Lenin stick by throughout the revolution? His leftists critics (left communists, workers opposition, anarchists, non-party workers etc) USED S&R AGAINST him on many occasions.
So I don't think that book is a fair reflection of Lenin's 'real' testament, despite what Tony Cliff says.
So I don't think that book is a fair reflection of Lenin's 'real' testament, despite what Tony Cliff says.
Nigel said:Withering Away Of The State?????
(State & Revolution)
Could be argued(wrongly as far as I can see) that after Dictatorship Of The Proletariat has been established between first and second stage of the socialist program a self destruct mechanism would be established within the socialist state.
Incidentely, off the point but not too much. The relationship between Malatestas Ideas & the position taken by Lenin in Stae & Revolution.
The bound and self- infirmed body not being able to deal with the bandages being taken off without falling to the ground, but being beneficial to the patient: shadows of light on the cave wall without being able to stare directly into the Sun?(From Aristotle I Think): The idea of an Anarchist Party?
I'm not saying that they are directly the same, but there are similarities.
Malatesta favoured an Anarchist Party? hahaha
Er....
Malatesta's Socialist Revolutionary Anarchist Party - Wikipedia
It says that when the Anarchists were kicked out it eventually became the PSI - the Italian Socialist Party.
Malatesta's Socialist Revolutionary Anarchist Party - Wikipedia
It says that when the Anarchists were kicked out it eventually became the PSI - the Italian Socialist Party.
According to that what he favoured was the creation of an Italian organisation capable of acting as the Italian wing of the IWA. I doubt the word Party had the same resonance then and Malatesta's use of the word is ambivalent -
From here - http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/platform/malatesta_project.html
From here - http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/platform/malatesta_project.html
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