Libertarian Socialism. Bollocks or What?
- Thread starter tbaldwin
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rhys gethin
New Member
tbaldwin said:
Where does THAT idea come from? I've been around the left quite a time, and I never came across any group that held this putschist notion. There are in fact plenty of warnings about such 'vanguardist' fantasy. Why do you think Lenin tried to hold back the Petrograd workers? It was so that the whole Class should act together.
rhys gethin
New Member
Mallard said:
You're not serious?????
Well, I don't think you are! What is your point here? Lenin's position is well recorded and - until now - not doubted by anyone I ever heard of.
JoePolitix
Gone
Here's a few interesting Marxist critiques of self-styled "libertarian" socialism:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1966/twosouls/4-anarch.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/398/bakunin.html
http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Back/Wnext27/Marxbak.html
http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1966/twosouls/4-anarch.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/398/bakunin.html
http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Back/Wnext27/Marxbak.html
Tedious old Leninist attacks on Bakunin do not a coherent critique make. 
One would have thought we would not need to point out to "self styled" Marxists that not all those calling themselves libertarian socialists are anarchists, and still less treat Bakunin as any kind of guru. ("I am not a Marxist" - Karl Marx)
IMO one of the greatest criticisms that can be made of Bakunin was his indulgence of Nechaev. Now Nechaev, when you look at his moral and practical stance, appears to have much more in common with modern day Leninists (and particularly Trotskyists, judging from their current behaviour towards erstwhile comrades in Scotland
) than any libertarian socialists I have come across. The end justifies the means, indeed....
And the CPGB and pals lecturing people about "democracy"!
Truly, as the Paris Situationists would say, some people 'speak with a corpse in their mouths'....
One would have thought we would not need to point out to "self styled" Marxists that not all those calling themselves libertarian socialists are anarchists, and still less treat Bakunin as any kind of guru. ("I am not a Marxist" - Karl Marx)
IMO one of the greatest criticisms that can be made of Bakunin was his indulgence of Nechaev. Now Nechaev, when you look at his moral and practical stance, appears to have much more in common with modern day Leninists (and particularly Trotskyists, judging from their current behaviour towards erstwhile comrades in Scotland
) than any libertarian socialists I have come across. The end justifies the means, indeed.... And the CPGB and pals lecturing people about "democracy"!
Truly, as the Paris Situationists would say, some people 'speak with a corpse in their mouths'....
JoePolitix
Gone
greenman said:Tedious old Leninist attacks on Bakunin do not a coherent critique make.
One would have thought we would not need to point out to "self styled" Marxists that not all those calling themselves libertarian socialists are anarchists, and still less treat Bakunin as any kind of guru. ("I am not a Marxist" - Karl Marx)
IMO one of the greatest criticisms that can be made of Bakunin was his indulgence of Nechaev. Now Nechaev, when you look at his moral and practical stance, appears to have much more in common with modern day Leninists (and particularly Trotskyists, judging from their current behaviour towards erstwhile comrades in Scotland
And the CPGB and pals lecturing people about "democracy"!
Truly, as the Paris Situationists would say, some people 'speak with a corpse in their mouths'....
Judging by the above, I wouldn't give lectures on how to make a coherent critique!
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Thanx
For the record I considered myself to be a Libertairian Socialist for about Fourteen Years.
I now just call myself a socialist.
I've always supported the Kronstadt Uprising from various different view points.
Thanx, I was getting a little paranoid then.Mallard said:Sorry Nigel I thought you were some horrendous unreconstructed trot egotist I used to know
For the record I considered myself to be a Libertairian Socialist for about Fourteen Years.
I now just call myself a socialist.
I've always supported the Kronstadt Uprising from various different view points.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
In Dixyland I'll make My Stand......
What about his support for the Confederates during the American Civil War, Chauvanistic Polish Nationalism & a sprinkling of Anti Semitism against Jewish Peoples.
Key texts of Bakunin are very impressive; God & The State, Marxism Freedom & The State, however he did write quite a bit of dodgy stuff!!!!
greenman said:Tedious old Leninist attacks on Bakunin do not a coherent critique make.
One would have thought we would not need to point out to "self styled" Marxists that not all those calling themselves libertarian socialists are anarchists, and still less treat Bakunin as any kind of guru. ("I am not a Marxist" - Karl Marx)
IMO one of the greatest criticisms that can be made of Bakunin was his indulgence of Nechaev. Now Nechaev, when you look at his moral and practical stance, appears to have much more in common with modern day Leninists (and particularly Trotskyists, judging from their current behaviour towards erstwhile comrades in Scotland
And the CPGB and pals lecturing people about "democracy"!
Truly, as the Paris Situationists would say, some people 'speak with a corpse in their mouths'....
What about his support for the Confederates during the American Civil War, Chauvanistic Polish Nationalism & a sprinkling of Anti Semitism against Jewish Peoples.
Key texts of Bakunin are very impressive; God & The State, Marxism Freedom & The State, however he did write quite a bit of dodgy stuff!!!!
The extreme anti-authoritarianism that sees even the manifestations of the social world - i.e. the symbolic order - as unnecessary repression, isn't something that most anarchists these days would entertain. In fact, that sort of opposition to the 'tyranny of the social' now seems to be the province of wacky post-Leninists like Zizek - I can think of no equivalent within any recent anarchist thinking.
from here: http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/398/bakunin.html
This is just bollocks, isn't it. Totally non-contendible, unsupported arse. They might just as well have said that anarchists are all fat and smell of wee.
Hawkeye Pearce
We're your friends man...
The point is that most anarchists do not seek to make a god out of Bakunin or anybody else for that matter. Some of what he wrote was very good particularly regarding his controversy with marx and his writings on the commune. But he was a flawed man with some ropey political associations in his time and most anarchists would not seek to make what he wrote into a holistic system. Unlike many marxists who sought to make marx into a secular version of god.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
tbaldwin said:
Yeah. Paul Newman the pockmarked taxi-driver from Carshalton.
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