Lib Dem By-Election Win in Scotland

[Sue]

Put it this way how many councillors has the Labour Party in Scotland got and how many has the Scottish Socialist Party got? Or perhaps you could enlighten us as to what your views on the SSP result are?

BarryB

BarryB, your party has just lost a seat that previously a monkey could've won if it'd been wearing a red rosette and you're trying to change the subject to the SSP's vote going down by 0.1% and querying the number of councillors they have...?

 

[tollbar]

Some Factors in the labour defeat probably include the split between Brown and Scottish first minister, Jack McConnell over the forth road bridge tolls (Brown intervened to say that the tolls would be scrapped, when in fact its none of his business as its a devolved matter, Bridge tolls a major factor here as Dunfermline right next to the Bridge) A candidate parachuted in once more against the wishes of the local party (when will they ever learn), the ongoing fall out from the iraq war and last, but by no means least, the virtual collapse of many local labour parties up here since 97 due to the destruction of internal labour party democracy. Another illustration of this was in south ayrshire last week when labour lost a crucial local council by election and any hope of winning back control of the council from the Tories despite shipping in activists from as far away as Livingstone for the by election campaign.

Where the SSP is concerned, its all very well for lindsey German to say that people in the UK dont know what the word socialist means, but the word didnt stop the SSP winning 6 seats in the scottish parliament in 2003 did it ?. (and doesnt the party of which German is a leading member have a certain word in its title ?). Some possible explanations for poor SSP showing, a certain lack of direction, no possibility that the SSP with whatever candidate was likely to be a major player here. A very limited local organisation, a belief amongst certain many in the party that 'Brit elections' are hardly worth fighting and very probably Rosie Kanes war on the Beano didnt help.

 

[Lock&Light]

Exactly, there's Christchurch, Winchester (Oaten's seat) and others wher the Lib Dems have held on

They were ex-Tory seats, and English. Dunfermline will return to Labour, without a doubt.

 

[Sue]

...and very probably Rosie Kanes war on the Beano didnt help.

Do tell....?

 

[articul8]

Some Factors in the labour defeat probably include the split between Brown and Scottish first minister, Jack McConnell over the forth road bridge tolls (Brown intervened to say that the tolls would be scrapped, when in fact its none of his business as its a devolved matter, Bridge tolls a major factor here as Dunfermline right next to the Bridge) A candidate parachuted in once more against the wishes of the local party (when will they ever learn), the ongoing fall out from the iraq war and last, but by no means least, the virtual collapse of many local labour parties up here since 97 due to the destruction of internal labour party democracy. Another illustration of this was in south ayrshire last week when labour lost a crucial local council by election and any hope of winning back control of the council from the Tories despite shipping in activists from as far away as Livingstone for the by election campaign.

Might there also have been an element of a sympathy vote for Charles Kennedy here too?? Apparently, he was very warmly received when he visited to canvass.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

People hear socialist and probably quite often the thoughts that come to mind are -

State control, centralisation; corrupt one party councils; the worst versions of TU activity, bureaucrats and sectionalism; corrupt and authoritarian one party states, grim 1970s "municipal socialism", liberal middle class identity politics - 80s local government style; daft student impossibilism, headbanging cultist Trot paper sellers; run down public services staffed by demoralised jobsworths, Arthur Scargill, Derek Hatton and John Prescott thumping people They think old, old, old fashioned.

Not saying this is right or even accurate versions of history in many cases, but -

This is a MAJOR image problem!

I say this as someone who would call themselves a green socialist or libertarian socialist (note lower case throughout!) But I know that when I stand as a Green I will get 10-15% and more (rising!) at local elections. If I stood as a "Green Socialist", though my politics would be no different I would be getting perhaps 3-4% max. Drop the Green from that and I would be getting the 1-2% normally achieved by left groups for the last 20 odd years!

The Respect experience mirrors this.

I agree with treelover and what L. German said - there is now a whole generation of people throughout Britain for whom socialism means nothing other than a lot of negative images. McAllion seemed an excellent candidate with gravitas and experience, in a byelection where people are more likely to break ranks with their usual party. Even accounting for a large tactical vote, you would have expected his share of the vote to rise, surely..

I disagree, I think that their were probably more specific reasons and factors why the SSP didn't do fantastically in this election, rather than the "Socialist" label.

For example, many people who wanted to hammer Labour will have seen voting the LibDems as the best way to do it - in the General Election in my area, I met many people who were really supportive of Respect (including donating money to it) but who chose to vote LibDem because they wanted to hammer Labour over the war and knew their was a chance that the LibDems could unseat them, conversely a few other people who were supportive of Respect still voted Labour because they knew that Labour could lose their seat to the Yellow Tories.

The vote which might have gone to the SSP was probably split three-way between people who voted LibDem and SNP as left-alternatives to New Labour.

Another, is that the SSP sacked Tommy Sheridan and (from what I hear) been more interested in tailing the SNP and pushing nationalism, than the socialism which first won them support.

Though, GM, does have a general argument about how the left presents its arguments and engages with wider society.

For example, I recall an opinion poll a few years back, which asked a sample of people what policies they supported, and then matched each person to the party which supported the policies that they had voted for. The poll said if these results were mirrored in a general election - the Green Party would be the government and the Socialist Alliance would be the opposition!

 

[tollbar]

Do tell....?

This was widely reported in scotland last week. The Beano has launched a new cartoon strip featuring a family called 'the Neds' shellsuit wearing persons of ill repute with characters called Chav and Chavette. Rosie Kane, SSP, msp made a great song and dance about this being disrespectful to youth. To many it just looked like more PC gone mad stuff.

 

[Sue]

This was widely reported in scotland last week. The Beano has launched a new cartoon strip featuring a family called 'the Neds' shellsuit wearing persons of ill repute with characters called Chav and Chavette. Rosie Kane, SSP, msp made a great song and dance about this being disrespectful to youth. To many it just looked like more PC gone mad stuff.

Thanks. Not keeping up with the Scottish press really at the moment. Guess this ties in with the whole 'ned' debate from before.

 

[tollbar]

I disagree, I think that their were probably more specific reasons and factors why the SSP didn't do fantastically in this election, rather than the "Socialist" label.

For example, many people who wanted to hammer Labour will have seen voting the LibDems as the best way to do it - in the General Election in my area, I met many people who were really supportive of Respect (including donating money to it) but who chose to vote LibDem because they wanted to hammer Labour over the war and knew their was a chance that the LibDems could unseat them, conversely a few other people who were supportive of Respect still voted Labour because they knew that Labour could lose their seat to the Yellow Tories.

The vote which might have gone to the SSP was probably split three-way between people who voted LibDem and SNP as left-alternatives to New Labour.

Another, is that the SSP sacked Tommy Sheridan and (from what I hear) been more interested in tailing the SNP and pushing nationalism, than the socialism which first won them support.

!

Most people on the left in scotland consider themselves to be nationalist to a greater or lesser degree, indeed as do most scots, opinion polls consistantly show people in Scotland, particularly the under 35s as considering themselves Scots first and Brits a long way second, if at all. The Sheridan factor and the association with some daft stunts like Colin Fox dressed as Robin Hood, probably have left a bad memory in a lot of peoples minds.

 

[BarryB]

BarryB, your party has just lost a seat that previously a monkey could've won if it'd been wearing a red rosette and you're trying to change the subject to the SSP's vote going down by 0.1% and querying the number of councillors they have...?

And? Is discussing the SSP performance a no go area on this forum?

I have in front of me the SSP paper 'Scottish Socialist Voice' for 10-16 February. The headline on the back page is "SSP taps into rich seam of support in radical Fife". 1.5% of the vote is supposed to be good? What a load of tosh.

BarryB

 

[Sue]

And? Is discussing the SSP performance a no go area on this forum?

BarryB

I hold no brief for the SSP and of course discussion of their results is not a 'no go' area. Just seems a bit, well lame to try to turn this into a debate on the SSP's performance when the obvious story here is what happened to the Labour/Lib Dem vote.

 

[Charlie Drake]

This was widely reported in scotland last week. The Beano has launched a new cartoon strip featuring a family called 'the Neds' shellsuit wearing persons of ill repute with characters called Chav and Chavette. Rosie Kane, SSP, msp made a great song and dance about this being disrespectful to youth. To many it just looked like more PC gone mad stuff.

If she came at it from a 'don't dis tha yoof' stance - then this is just right-on leftie shite. However I read quite recently a peice on the IWCA site about the 'Chav' thing and that how the media portrays them is just good old class snobbery. If Kane adopted a similar stance then fairplay.

Why didn't the Scottish Greens stand in Dunfermline?

 

[shagnasty]

there is a very large group of people who are disenfranchised by new labour ,blair as finally broken cover to show that he is real tory .the question is where do they go do they turn to the lib-dems ssp or do they stay at home and watch eastenders thinking why bother they are all the same .it will be interesting to see

 

[William of Walworth]

Excellent post from greenman at the bottom of page 1

Only just caught up here ...

 

[vimto]

By-election results do not have that kind of influence. Blair has long ago decided when he plans to go, and only a serious defeat in Parliament can have any effect in speeding him up.

...another Lock&Light fact

 

[treelover]

Greenman's page 1 post for a sticky, say aye, er, aye!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interesting watching the nuLabour spin on Newsnight. Drone after drone saying 'This was a local election for local people, there's nothing for you here'

 

[JimPage]

Put it this way how many councillors has the Labour Party in Scotland got and how many has the Scottish Socialist Party got? Or perhaps you could enlighten us as to what your views on the SSP result are?

2 ssp councillors- but hopefully a lot more in 2007 when the local elections are under PR up here.

watch this space....

 

[JimPage]

, a belief amongst certain many in the party that 'Brit elections' are hardly worth fighting

.............this is very true. elections for the brit parliament will hoepfully be a non issue if a pro- idependance majority is electied in 2007

and very probably Rosie Kanes war on the Beano didnt help.

.............. i dont think the average beano reader is old enough to vote. what she says is true though- anyone who uses the word Chav or Ned negatively is basically a scumbag who labels workingclass people negatively

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Interesting watching the nuLabour spin on Newsnight. Drone after drone saying 'This was a local election for local people, there's nothing for you here'

I soooooooo want to slap Hazel Blears round the head with a wet fish!

 

[tollbar]

,
.............. i dont think the average beano reader is old enough to vote. what she says is true though- anyone who uses the word Chav or Ned negatively is basically a scumbag who labels workingclass people negatively

They aint. Rosie you have to remember is a youth worker by profession and took it from a youth being disrespected angle when its actually just the sort of anti working class shite you might expect from DC Thompson. If its anti working class propaganda best just to say that.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I'm not that knowledgable about Scottish politics, but I would hazard a guess that another factor for the lack of success of the SSP is the return of Alex Salmond as leader of the SNP, and the SNP successfully puting on their LEFT face and experiencing something of a revival.

Rather than facing down this challenge with Class politics, I get the impression from what I have heard, that the SSP has gone down the root of trying to tail the nationalists and have made the "national question" one of their main foci.

I would assume that every socialist on these boards wishes to see the SSP revive it's fortunes