LFI/Revo - Sadly this isn't a spoof.....

[dennisr]

Not the militant in Liverpool debate again surely

just what i was thinking.

i suppose it has some relevance now given the growing housing crisis - a lot of lessons to be learned if one is seriously interested in how to get houses built and reforms achieved - bread and butter stuff.

ps re you comment on having to keep quiet because of the internal shenanigans - yep, thats a fair enough explaination to me.

 

[cockneyrebel]

i suppose it has some relevance now given the growing housing crisis - a lot of lessons to be learned if one is seriously interested in how to get houses built and reforms achieved - bread and butter stuff.

But we also have to recognise we are in a very, very different time. Strike figures at historic lows and the trade union movement and far left probably at their weakest point in the last 100 years.

As it goes in terms of Lambeth and the mass privatisations and huge rent rises a central part of the campaign is trying to link up tenants and staff. But we have to work from a very low level of struggle.

It's like when people comment on what to do in the trade unions without recognising that basic stuff like calling meetings, electing stewards, putting up notice boards etc will be a step forward in most workplaces. But some on the left don't want to face up to that and come out with the tired old stuff about a united offensive being round the corner. And then when it doesn't happen they just go back to the beginning again without seeing that stuff has changed. I think this article is worth reading:

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1542

(or print it off here http://www.permanentrevolution.net/files/pr4/22-28 Working class.pdf)

 

[articul8]

This is likely to be a 'red' rag to many bulls here (and elsewhere) but what has the left outside of the Labour party actually achieved in Britain to date? and that includes BTW the British CP

Even the STWC had Labour elements within it, however marginal. Militant did seem to achieve significantly more as an entrist party (not just in Liverpool, but at the time of the poll tax) than the SP has thus far - and appears likely to in the foreseable future.

 

[blamblam]

This would be the same REVO that you used to deny was being manipulated by the LFI and WP when you were a member would it? I guess it started just after you left

this is exactly the shit i said years ago and got slagged off for by cockneyrebel's lot. still i guess it was fine when you were with the "in" weirdo clique that ran it...

 

[Rajjie]

-

 

[emanymton]

The above post is the spoof, right?

 

[cockneyrebel]

this is exactly the shit i said years ago and got slagged off for by cockneyrebel's lot. still i guess it was fine when you were with the "in" weirdo clique that ran it...

In terms of being a weirdo I think you might wanna think of the phrase "those in glass houses"

But I've already answered this. I also disagreed with lots of stuff that went on with Workers Power and Revo (ask mk12) but kept my criticisms internal because i) there was a long faction fight going on and I would of got expelled and ii) before this I was part of an organisation that had a twisted and bureaucratic form of democratic centralism, which looking back was wrong. But having come from the SWP (which was even worse in many ways) I didn't see the problems with this straight away.

Heh we can't all have had such brilliant political careers such as leader of the Anarchist Youth Network

The above post is the spoof, right?

What post

Rajjie why did you delete your thread.

For what it's worth I think the statement in the OP is firstly too gossipy and secondly a bit too melodramatic. TW did make the point though that this is probably meant for people already involved in what is going on, which is a fair point.

 

[emanymton]

What post

Rajjie basically said everything in the OP was lies as they know all the people involved (maybe true who knows?) but it was a typical reposne (with a few silly comments) and over exajetrated the importance of this event.

Can I just say 16 people at a national conference, Christ I once attended an SWP branch meeting not much smaller than that!

 

[emanymton]

... 50 people do not make a conference...

To be pedantic that rather depends on whether they are delegates representing larger numbers of people or if it is the sum total of the group, after all most TU conferences will only number a few hundred.

 

[Rajjie]

Rajjie basically said everything in the OP was lies as they know all the people involved (maybe true who knows?) but it was a typical reposne (with a few silly comments) and over exajetrated the importance of this event

Yeah that's pretty much right what he just said.

It is a pack of lies about the woman being assulted at a summer camp, and about non-WP members in REVO being threatened with the courts. Who comes up with this bullshit?

I do know all the people involved, the woman in question is one of my best friends. Only a couple of weeks ago she visited me and slept in my house.

I wrote the post after I'd had a couple of beers and so it was a bit...silly. But my point still stands. The woman was not pushed to the ground at the camp. I was there, I've spoken to both the woman and the accused at great length about this.

 

[butchersapron]

In a proletarian court of honour?

 

[derzinky]

This is likely to be a 'red' rag to many bulls here (and elsewhere) but what has the left outside of the Labour party actually achieved in Britain to date? and that includes BTW the British CP

Even the STWC had Labour elements within it, however marginal. Militant did seem to achieve significantly more as an entrist party (not just in Liverpool, but at the time of the poll tax) than the SP has thus far - and appears likely to in the foreseable future.

I like your website www.socialist.net

 

[malcolj]

I like your website www.socialist.net

Nice makover but wrong site http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/

 

[cockneyrebel]

Rajjie basically said everything in the OP was lies as they know all the people involved (maybe true who knows?) but it was a typical reposne (with a few silly comments) and over exajetrated the importance of this event.

I have to say that the stuff in the OP was too full of personal stuff.

Yeah that's pretty much right what he just said.

It is a pack of lies about the woman being assulted at a summer camp, and about non-WP members in REVO being threatened with the courts. Who comes up with this bullshit?

I do know all the people involved, the woman in question is one of my best friends. Only a couple of weeks ago she visited me and slept in my house.

I wrote the post after I'd had a couple of beers and so it was a bit...silly. But my point still stands. The woman was not pushed to the ground at the camp. I was there, I've spoken to both the woman and the accused at great length about this.

Hi Rajjie, remember to send me those details of the stuff we were talking about at the anti-war demo.

To be honest with all this "she said that, he said that" stuff it just all becomes petty. I think there are problems with the way WP operates in Revo and said so when I was a member of WP. This does come from a political basis but I have to say I did see numerous unpleasant personlal stuff go on and I think this partly came from the way certain people were but more than that came from the bureaucratic form of politics that went on and the political analysis of what is going on both in the UK and globally.

Also I would say that WP would have a bit of a cheek complaining about stuff being too personal. After the split with WP/PR the documents from PR (whatever you think of them) stuck to the politics. WPs document was full of personal stuff including ridiculous stuff about PR members stealing stuff from WP and even wanting to make WP full timers homeless/destitute!! Sorry that stuff was completely bonkers as were melodramtic phrases like "petty bourgeois dilletantes(sp?)".

 

[dennisr]

No, they had Councillors in Liverpool who were elected as Labour, and a couple of MPs who pulled the same stunt. I doubt if anyone ever won a parliamentary election in which voters elected somene as "Militant". Their electoral success lay in conning people, assisted by a Labour Party which used to tolerate that sort of thing. Their main figurehead became a cheesy talk radio DJ, and is now a noted

"Whilst Derek recalls amusing stories from this period but he himself no longer holds any party political loyalties and his speeches are never political."

I have to reply to this crapulance

You seem somewhat obsessed with derek hatton - what was his 'crime' then - sharp suits and a cocky atitude?

He stood by the people of Livrpool on the programme he was elected on despite years of daily lies and distortions in the press, etc - how many of the politicians who's lies you are repeating uncritically could you say the same for now?? I mean do tell us what choice we are given from most of your 'acceptable' politicians beyond 'vote for the person who is going to shaft and rob you'.

Like the media of the time you try and 'personalise' a struggle by tens of thousands of Liverpool people who won huge concessions as the 'manipulations' of one person or one small group. Its insulting - not only to Militants but to all of those people. Do you consider such people (those tens of thousands...) stupid for what they stood up for and achieved??

Do you consider derek hatton 'dodgy' for daring to try and earn a living for himself and his family once that struggle is over and the fella has to pick up his life as best he can and despite a vicious years long campaign of slander against him (and 200 'investigating' coppers wasting their time and OUR money for two years with NO resulting charges and a half million surcharge imposed on the 47 working class councillors as an attempt to 'punish' them) ? You sound like one of those pack animals who come along after a fight is over and kick someone one after other folk - the ones who actually did the fighting - have beaten him down - repeating slanders,18-20 years later in your case. Thats sad and the actions of exactly the sort of spineless, gutless cunt that you are trying to pin onto hatton. He fought - you, you just posted lies on the internet.

As for the labour bureaucrat arguement you happily repeated about 'conning' - do you mean 'getting around a bureaucratic manovoure designed to stiffle critisim from the left within the labour party by bans on organisation within that party (while being organised themselves at the top - as the eventual move to new labour neo-liberalism showed)'? The Militant were bureacratically banned from being organised so they side-stepped this. So what was the 'crime' there?

As for 'not able to stand on heir own platform' - they always put forward clear class politics - thats why they got elected in Liverpool. You would have had to have been in a coma not to have been aware you were voting for 'loony trots' thanks to our wonderful and obviously completely unbiast 'free' press. The Militant MPs were expelled from the Labour party for standing on the programme they were elected on and opposing the Poll Tax. Militant MP, Terry Fields (an ex-fireman before becoming and MP) was expelled by Labour bureaucrats after being jailed for the poll tax - that is - standing by the people who elected him. The witchhunt was a replacement for genuine democraic arguement - frankly, because they could not argue with his honesty and programme without exposing themselves for being the hypocritical charlatens and REAL con merchants they were and are. But hey, you just continue to act as a mouthpiece for the rich, powerful and corrupt - i can't stop you.

And yes - Militants have stood under their own name since being witchhunted out as a left wing tendancy within the labour party. They won an MP(TD) in Dublin and have councillors in Lewisham and Coventry who have been re-elected because they are seen as campaigning on and backing up the principles they were originally elected on. 26 (i think it is...) left TU NEC members have been openly elected on their marxist programme at this moment in time. The Militants also have councilors in Germany, Sweden, Australia, Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

Its you who is doing the 'conning' mate - repeating easy lies by a kept media and scum boss politicians - on behalf of the enemies of the vast majority of people in this country. sucker.

 

[dennisr]

To be honest with all this "she said that, he said that" stuff it just all becomes petty.

Which is why it was probably daft to have posted what you did in the first place...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Which is why it was probably daft to have posted what you did in the first place...

Why? The statement has nothing to do with me, lots of people put up copy and pastes where they don't agree with all of it.

 

[dennisr]

Why? The statement has nothing to do with me, lots of people put up copy and pastes where they don't agree with all of it.

I think the whole thread ends up reinforcing the idea that the left as a whole are a bunch of loons - not just the group you were pointing out as looking like a bunch of loons

Anyway - gave me an excuse to give a top rant on liverpool and militant to some other loon...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Fair point. You loon