So what does the ignorant egomaniac go and do? He goes on a stalking binge.
Who is stalking you now Nino? It's not Menachim Begin again is it?
Lenins Tomb:the 'good strike' excised from history!
- Thread starter treelover
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Who is stalking you now Nino? It's not Menachim Begin again is it?
audiotech
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Nor are you, if you can't read the post that MC5 quoted. Given butcher's recent history with me, I can easily see what he's doing even when I have him on ignore. You'd have to be pretty thick not to see how he was fgollowing me around the boards for want of something to do.
I used to think that you were okay, but it turns out that you're just a curmudgeonly old hypocrite who likes to get his own way. How sad.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I wasn't "stirring" anything and he was following me around. He was on 3 other threads that I was on yesterday...quite obviously bored because he couldn't get a rise out of one of his usual targets.
Oh and I am calm.
Go and have a look at the facebook group 'British jobs for British workers'. There are several, the biggest had 32,000 members this morning (and will prob be 35K by this evening its growing exponentially).
Look at its bulletin board. It is an absolute cesspool of vile racism. last time I looked, someone was proposing that anyone whose famnily hadn't been here since WW2 should be deported. Noone seemed to be disagreeing too much with that.
The SP have done some creditable work in shifting things at LOR, but the spin-off effect of this is a carnival of the most vile reaction, and anyone who can't see that is off their trolley.
Here's an example - from a thread called 'stand up for your country - enough is enough[
'National Strike at 9 AM on 27th February, its our chance to take this corrupt governent down or we will be slaves in our own country!
No more Eu domination. No more Immigrants. No More foriegn ownership of Key industries. No More foreign Banking. NO MORE GORDON BROWN AND NEW LABOUR!!!
Spread this everywhere!'
The few there who try to argue that 'its not about race' are outnumbered by wankers like the one above.
ps the group now has 33K members. that's 1k more this morning.
Look at its bulletin board. It is an absolute cesspool of vile racism. last time I looked, someone was proposing that anyone whose famnily hadn't been here since WW2 should be deported. Noone seemed to be disagreeing too much with that.
The SP have done some creditable work in shifting things at LOR, but the spin-off effect of this is a carnival of the most vile reaction, and anyone who can't see that is off their trolley.
Here's an example - from a thread called 'stand up for your country - enough is enough[
'National Strike at 9 AM on 27th February, its our chance to take this corrupt governent down or we will be slaves in our own country!
No more Eu domination. No more Immigrants. No More foriegn ownership of Key industries. No More foreign Banking. NO MORE GORDON BROWN AND NEW LABOUR!!!
Spread this everywhere!'
The few there who try to argue that 'its not about race' are outnumbered by wankers like the one above.
ps the group now has 33K members. that's 1k more this morning.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
This is what I worry about: that this strike will act as a lightning rod for xenophobes and bigots.
Durutti?
dennisr
the acceptable face
Yep, facebook - that hive of 'activists' is definatley where the striking workers are expressing their opinions - that and the daily mail, bbc etc etc etc
Fuck the strikers, ehh?
dennisr
the acceptable face
More reason to intervine - more reason to put across an alternative to that rather than abstaining.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wow, mutley discoves there's some racists in the UK and some of them post on totally open access bulletiin boards. This is your communist critical thought is it? Using obv racists to beat strikers? What a loss of perspective.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Sure but how do you convince some of thsee folk that it is management and the entire culture of privatisation (and its variosu permutations) are to blame rather than foreign workers? With the Daily Mail on board spouting its usual line in xenophobic nonsense, the underlying reason for the strike has become obscured.
dennisr
the acceptable face
its the party line, "comrade"
Yep, facebook - that hive of 'activists' is definatley where the striking workers are expressing their opinions - that and the daily mail, bbc etc etc etc
Fuck the strikers, ehh?
When it comes to the strikers, I've already said that I think you lot have obviously done good work. When it comes to the wider population I think you've conjured something really fucking dangerous, and you haven't a clue what to do about it.
So you think an internet discusion group that is growing at, what about 5,000 a day and is dominated by hardline racism isn't any kind of a worry?
This strike has given them a neat little slogan to organise around - BJ4BW. Lets just hope their organisational skills are as crap as their politics.
dennisr
the acceptable face
But that too needs qualification - going on those lines to explain a way forward does not mean telling those strikers thier fears and concerns are 'reactionary' that they are racists - it means linking what folk do understand with a programme that can acheive united workers action and counterposing this to the atempts to derail that movement but media, right-wing bigots, fairweather facebook 'fans' of strikers etc.
The media will turn on the strikers when they start to threaten boss security - some already are.
Socialists do not abstain from taking up the progressive element of that movement because the demands being put forward by the media 'on behalf' of strikers (sic) are not 'perfect'. Only cowards and traitors do that.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
you didn't notice that it was Brown who came up with the slogan? that the strikers have now dropped it?
If left to the likes of your lot, the slogan would still be being used, the strikes would be far more likely to be explicitly racist, and the issues of Laval etc wouldn't have got any airing.
With the bosses, against the 'racists' is it? Sure looks like it from here.
(fair play to you for being the one and only SWP member to have the guts to come on and defend your party's view tho)
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I've edited my post to include:
...but how do you convince some of these folk that it is management and the entire culture of privatisation (and its various permutations) are to blame rather than foreign workers? With the Daily Mail on board spouting its usual line in xenophobic nonsense, the underlying reason for the strike has become obscured.
dennisr
the acceptable face
mutley are you surprised this mood exists?
In the vacuam created by trade union aquiesence, government neo-liberalism, spineless media for the last decade plus - in the wake of the collapse of even the distorted scoialist project and all that means for the old 'workers' parties (the events your organisation crowed about as a victory) and, specifically in Britain, the serious defeats of the moners and organised working class. What did you expect?
Is that a reason for NOT working with those workers? Is that a reason for not cutting across the progressive demands and potentially progressive movements that are coming out of this?
Thousands of 'do nothing' bitter, confused, misguided and angry people on a facebook farce site still give you no excuse whatsoever to come out with the crap your organiation has done. Its absolutely cowardly - on the part of so-called 'revolutionaries' especially - to try and join in with the smears of the mass media and politicians rather than put forward an alternative (see the other thread on the bbc's editorial 're-writing' for example)
dennisr
the acceptable face
Well judge the approach being taken on the ground by progressive trade union activists.
ABC stuff - taking up concerns in a manner that drops the zenophobic crap - that link the practical and actual solutions (to immediate and genuine fears) to a working class programme.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
So who is doing this? UNITE? Any links?
dennisr
the acceptable face
Read the other thread - its peppered with links to the SPs work - reports, demands put forward and voted for by those strikers
I should add that what seems to have been lost in the cries of 'reactionary' is what the underlying mood and anger represents - its against the imposition of boss EU laws that are - precisely - about setting on group of EU workers against another - about weakening trade union rates, organisation and conditions. Yes, it is articulated in a very confused manner - what do people expect given the last decade of defeat and aquiesence. This movement in the UK is not as seperate from a series across europe at the moment as the media and the rest try and misrepresent. Ironically, given the cul-de-sac ideas being crudely raised by some looking for a solution to their problems - there is strong potential for linking WITH other EU workers in joint action - of EU wide workers "protectionism" against EU boss attacks - in fact it is the only way forward for these workers (if you can accept the irony of the use of the word recently used). To simply see this as 'little englanders on the march' is a mistake by progressive activists - construction workers have been 'internationalised' by default for well over a decade. We should be bringing out the real issues rather than joining in with the condemnation from the comfortable, high and mightly
I'm not surprised at the mood, but I am surprised at the rate at which this group that expresses the mood has grown. If you look at the site, just watch the number of members bit and hit refresh after a couple of seconds. The number goes up at about 1 each second.
As far as my organisations 'crap' goes sorry but as far as I am concerned its telling it like it is. If the SP had influence when this started, you should have used it to get agreed slogans with pre-prepared official placards right from the start. Instead the slogan BJ4BW, even if you've got it matginalised at the original LOR strike has become what I've seen described as the DNA of this dispute, replicating out there at a frightening rate. Brown came up with it, but this wave of dispoutes has given it a lovely medium in which to grow.
Sure, the SP will argues against it on the ground and so will the SWP, but there are vast areas of this country with no organised left presence wher those who want to argue against that slogan will be isolated.
Its a fucking shite state of affairs (to quote trainspotting).
To others out there, whether you think I'm right or Dennis, for fucks sake get active, join some group on the left, whichever you fancy, build the union at work, build campaigns and united fronts, whatever. We need our side to get its act together.
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
Here's a pic from one of those demos in support:
I think I used to know that girl. I can't quite see the face, but the slogans are very 'her', if it's the person I'm thinking of.
Last I heard she was back in Malaysia, and had been jailed for a time for human rights activism (she's out now though).
dennisr
the acceptable face
So thats it - an appeal to 'join the party' thats pathetic.
Sorry but your attempts at 'cutting across the lies spoken about these strikers' is in practice an attempt - by insinuation and endless reference to an internet site - to legitimise your own organisations spinelessness.
And now you try and present the whole thing as some dark reactionary generalised mood - pathetic excuses. You haven't got a clue have you mate? if you cannot understand the contradictions within such movements then you had better get out of the kitchen because it is going to get a lot hotter - not just in the UK and some of those moods will be very confused and your ideas are going to be tested - again and again and again and exposed when found wanting. Black is not white despite the party line to condemn this movement out of hand is too completely misunderstand the period we are now going through - the events that those workers are responding to maybe blindly in some ways - but they can learn fast.
This sounds like your personal version of the old SWP line on the 'downturn' (you know the one before the bitter 2 year long miners dispute and wapping whe nyou lot had decided that no one was going to fight anyway). Your view seems to be that all these lazt defeated facebook fans are going to take to the streets - you may well be waiting a while. A sense of proportion is what is required - the blackshirts are not marching yet and the 'bj4bw' sloganising is riven with contradictions - not least because some of those crowing about it - the media and politicians will become terrified of the consequences of thier actions - they have very different interests to those of british and non-british workers.
The reality is mutley that your lot joined in with the rubbish. You say 'so would we argue this on the ground' - but your lot never did you? - we did - judge the words spoken here by the actions behind them and the results of those actions.
'So thats it - an appeal to 'join the party' thats pathetic'
Actually i said join any group 'whichever you fancy' , and 'whether you think I'm right or Dennis'. Learn to sodding read.
The rest of that is just a rant as far as i can see. fact is, this dispute has helped crystallize something that our side doesn't need. And I well understand that things are going to be hairy, but your mechanical triumphalism (the workers will 'learn fast', the media will 'become terrified of the consequences of their actions') won't be fit for purpose.
It's funny, I'd forgotten my first encounters with the Militant. they laughed at us for arging that the miners had lost! Told us they'd 'marched back to work undefeated' and that we'd understand that if we weren't so middle class. Do you still buy that line too?
Anyway I've got work to do. None of this is meant in a disparaging way. I think your blogger on 'a very public sociloogist' gets the tone for these discussions about right. Fraternally (though i doubt that will be accepted).
Actually i said join any group 'whichever you fancy' , and 'whether you think I'm right or Dennis'. Learn to sodding read.
The rest of that is just a rant as far as i can see. fact is, this dispute has helped crystallize something that our side doesn't need. And I well understand that things are going to be hairy, but your mechanical triumphalism (the workers will 'learn fast', the media will 'become terrified of the consequences of their actions') won't be fit for purpose.
It's funny, I'd forgotten my first encounters with the Militant. they laughed at us for arging that the miners had lost! Told us they'd 'marched back to work undefeated' and that we'd understand that if we weren't so middle class. Do you still buy that line too?
Anyway I've got work to do. None of this is meant in a disparaging way. I think your blogger on 'a very public sociloogist' gets the tone for these discussions about right. Fraternally (though i doubt that will be accepted).
dennisr
the acceptable face
When it comes to 'buying lines' - I think its you who has to argue your case here. So smearing the strikers is replaced by smearing the critic.
Yes, I read the qualifier thanks - does not change the content.
Yes, Andy's very diplomatic but he's still "mechanical", i imagine, in your eyes (i suppose that is easier for you than the politics ain't it)
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Notice the near total unity of the middle class left, the liberal establishment and the racist right in their portrayal of the wildcat strikes as being against “foreigners”. The left sects, more interested in the correct slogans than the underlying causes, grievances, relationship of class forces etc, the liberal elite always keen to portray rebellious workers as ignorant children who need to be educated about why the necessity of their suffering in the interests of capitalist progress and the fash and xenophobes trying to piggyback off of peoples legitimate grievances.
This simplistic narrative is being exposed by fact that the BNP scum have been sent packing from the picket lines and the strike leaders calls for the unionisation of the immigrant labours. Sure there will be reactionary elements and they should be challenged but anybody who thinks that you ever get ideologically pure action of any sort should probably just stick to paper selling outside Tescos. Fair play to the Socialist Party for their positive work.
This simplistic narrative is being exposed by fact that the BNP scum have been sent packing from the picket lines and the strike leaders calls for the unionisation of the immigrant labours. Sure there will be reactionary elements and they should be challenged but anybody who thinks that you ever get ideologically pure action of any sort should probably just stick to paper selling outside Tescos. Fair play to the Socialist Party for their positive work.
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