cockneyrebel
New Member
That's nice.
Lefty party thread
- Thread starter belboid
- Start date
That's nice.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
Then answer it.
cockneyrebel
New Member
I have absolutely no intention into getting into a pointless debate with chuck wilson.
And to be honest have no interest in debating that question full stop. If you want to, go ahead.
And to be honest have no interest in debating that question full stop. If you want to, go ahead.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
So you're just going to ignore a perfectly reasonable question because you don't like the person who posed it?
Doesn't do your position any favours, IMHO.
cockneyrebel
New Member
No I'm just not in the mood to have a debate on that question at the moment, can't be bothered.
But my other point was that I wouldn't have any debate with chuck wilson as it's pointless (nothing to do with not liking him though, don't know him).
But my other point was that I wouldn't have any debate with chuck wilson as it's pointless (nothing to do with not liking him though, don't know him).
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
I must admit to having missed that element of the SWP view between 1979 and 1998.
Jean-Luc
Well-Known Member
Of course before 1979 the SWP did contest elections, eg the one Paul Foot always used to joke about in Birmingham in 1977: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Stechford_by-election,_1977
But so did other lefty groups. The best example surely must have been the Lambeth Central by-election in 1978 when no less than 5 lefty candidates stood (against each other): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeth_Central_by-election,_1978
Lambeth Central by-election, 1978
Labour John Tilley 10,311 49.5
Conservative Jeremy Hanley 7,170 34.4
National Front Helena Steven 1,291 6.2
Liberal David Blunt 1,104 5.3
Socialist Unity John Chase 287 1.4
Workers' Revolutionary Corin Redgrave 271 1.3
Socialist Workers Anthony Bogues 201 1.0
Socialist Party (GB) Barry McNeeney 91 0.4
Independent Alan Whereat 55 0.3
South London People's Front Stuart Monro 38 0.2
Democratic Monarchist Bill Boaks 27 0.1
It looks like there is a certain consistency in the SWP's politics as even then they had abandoned appealing to the majority of workers targetting only a minority: "the Socialist Workers Party stood in the name of their publication Flame - Black Workers Paper For Self Defence.". Actually, in the recent London elections, having abandoned or been abandoned by the Muslims, they turned again to blacks.
urbanrevolt
New Member
The issue of supporting Labour in elections is a thorny one but applies to much of the left to varying degrees- both the swp and renewal advocated a 2nd preference vote for Livingstone (though the sp didn't)
When Labour are in office their attacks on the working class are obvious so many working class people don't vote for them- unfortunately they tend to vote for other pro-capitalist parties.
The only real way forward is to build working class campaigns in the workplaces and communities to emancipate ourselves. Elections are strictly secondary to this I feel- if voting changed anything they'd abolish it etc.
However, millions of workers still believe that candidates such as Livingstone can offer some limited progressive reforms (extremely limited in Livingsotne's case but many feel Boris will be worse)- actually the market and capitalist system severly limit the ability of reformist politicians to even dlevier crumbs to the working class. In the absence of standing candidates of our own to aid the extra-parliamentary struggle and in the absence of a mass revolutionary uprising where the working class has significant illusions in Labour or other left parties then going through an election campaign by being completley honest saying actually we don't think a Labour win will liberate us but we'll struggle for self-organisation of the class- strikes, demos, occupations etc- and as part of that advocate a Labour vote to put them to the test of office, a trst we think they'll fail.
In the current circumstances though where the working class perhaps doesn't have significant enough illusions it is harder to argue this. When asked in campaigns and at work who I'd vote for rather than just say Labour I'd say about how voting is not what's important but if pressed might say I'd vote Labour as against the BNP or Tories getting in but much more important is what we do in the class struggle.
As for where the support went more people voted Livingstone than before but some of tohse who previously abstained voted Tory or even BNP thus delivering Johnson a victory.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
The SWP stood in elections themselves between 1976 and 1978. They pretty much stayed out of the elections in 1974, not even supporting the few candidates the rival IMG stood in those elections. (Maybe Eamonn McCann popped down from Derry to do some canvassing for Bernadette Devlin in Feb 74, but certainly nowhere else).
They did not support the dozen or so 'Socialist Unity' candidates in 1979 either - calling for a vote for Labour everywhere instead.
There were elections after 1978 contested by lefty groups. They were usually standing as Labour. How did the SWP think that the Militant had so much influence in Liverpool Council, if they did not stand and get elected? Militant, 'Socialist Organiser', and the IMG all stood for election as Labour. The only people to stand against Labour during this period (bar the odd dispute within Labour) were the laughable 'Red Front' of the RCP, whose shrill ultra left denunciations of everyone else and impressive flyposting seems to be the model for some of the tactics being adopted by the Left List (without the merits of the flyposting).
Until the by-election in 1991 for Liverpool Walton when Militant stood under their own colours, the SWP did not get involved in elections whatsoever. Even after that point their input was minimal - basically elections were a way of getting a few papers sold. They did not involve themselves in the election campaigns of the Scottish Socialist Alliance/Party in the late 1990s. Things changed in 1999 when they stood for the Scottish Parliament as SWP, when incidentally they opposed standing in the European Elections in London to give Arthur Scargill a free run at it.
It's a nonsense to claim that contesting elections has always been part of the view of the SWP, when for 20 years they did virtually nothing.
cockneyrebel
New Member
urbanrevolt the person asking the question is chuck wilson who is always on a wind up and has no interest in a real debate on this.
urbanrevolt
New Member
sure but I thought the question fair enough so i gave an answer- why do the swp and others advocate a vote for livingstone and labour etc. it helps to think these things through I think but anyway fully understand your point too
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Labour regaining a position of authority, no I would'nt say is progressive.
And Lee Cole losing his seat without anyone more progressive than the IWCA taking his position is not a particularly good thing.
I don't think that it is a particularly good thing that the IWCA are on their way out, just inevitable.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Apologies for my previous question - I confused you with someone else. Someone with a clue. Cheers.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Anyone remember this claim re SWP numbers?
Now look at how this translates into Left List votes:
That's a 140 members, 160 votes (okay I'm not counting the town centre ward, but still for dramatic effect the examples will suffice).
Thats ....
1.4 votes per member if you believe the hype.
Sadly, I don't expect DU to arrive to eat humble pie, indeed, its merely an illustration of the situation affecting the whole Left.
Which raises two related questions
When will the Left acknowledge to itself just how a) organisationally weak it is? and b) just how little resonance their ideas have at the moment?
Now look at how this translates into Left List votes:
That's a 140 members, 160 votes (okay I'm not counting the town centre ward, but still for dramatic effect the examples will suffice).
Thats ....
1.4 votes per member if you believe the hype.
Sadly, I don't expect DU to arrive to eat humble pie, indeed, its merely an illustration of the situation affecting the whole Left.
Which raises two related questions
When will the Left acknowledge to itself just how a) organisationally weak it is? and b) just how little resonance their ideas have at the moment?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
That's a bit of a silly argument - there are around 200 wards of that size in Lancashire, so that means on average there will 1 or 2 SWP members living there (if you believe the figures). Of course that takes no account of the fact that probably a quarter of the actual SWP members live in one ward (University Ward, Lancaster City Council).
The bigger problem is that those alleged 160 members could only get it together to put up four candidates in about 100 wards up for elections, says how serious the rest of them are about building their electoral organisation. There were no candidates in Burnley or Blackburn (both areas where either Respect or Socialist Alliance has previously stood and where there are loads of SWP members) or in Hyndburn, Pendle, Chorley or West Lancashire, all of which had elections last week.
And the fact that the two candidates who are SWP members could not get it together to stand as "Left List", when that was their party's line, while the one candidate who was a former Labour Party member did get it together to stand as Left List (and appears to have paid heavily for that switch) says a lot too.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
How come in Wales the SWP stood as the Left Party and not the Left List?
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
But some of them stood in Manchester and Preston as "Left List". And in Birmingham they stood as no description. I'm sure there's a logic somewhere
Ward figures now out for London
http://results.londonelects.org.uk/Results/DownloadResults.aspx
You need to go to bottom of page where it says Ward Level Data
Look on the top for the section marked purple for assembly results
BNP Party No 2
Left List party 8
Respect Galloway party 11
Only looked in some areas, but other than Respect Galloway in east London, really poor.
I cant find a Left List ward vote anywhere in 3 figures
http://results.londonelects.org.uk/Results/DownloadResults.aspx
You need to go to bottom of page where it says Ward Level Data
Look on the top for the section marked purple for assembly results
BNP Party No 2
Left List party 8
Respect Galloway party 11
Only looked in some areas, but other than Respect Galloway in east London, really poor.
I cant find a Left List ward vote anywhere in 3 figures
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
A few helped out with SLP during the mid-1990's don't know if this was SWP policy?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Flame were quite a cool group of people. Did'nt they advocate mugging white people as an anti-imperialist act. Thought they were expelled around 1980/81.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Thanks for having a bash at defending the PR position . It's a pity Josh doesn't have the balls to do the same.
Livingstons vote was a combination of appeal to various lobby groups and the middle class left . I didn't see evidence of any real appetite for a working class vote for him. Despite the shock horror stories about bendy buses I don't see any real difference for the working class in London under Johnson.
In terms of a test of office does anyone still really have any illusions in New Labour as being pro working class? In the week they complained about the 'toff 'credentials of the Tory candidate in Crewe they published a paper which outlined opening up to the private sector the pupil referall units that Councils run.
No Tory govt would ever have had the balls to do that.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
New Labour was arguably the most ideologically consistent right-wing government this country has ever had. So much so that the next Tory regime can afford to be the left of it, without ever threatning the governing neo-liberal paradigm.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Who is Josh? As the 39th step is chuck wilson is it not? And it's not that "I don't have the balls", it's that all you want to do is have a wind up.
Jean-Luc
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know who or what the South London Peoples Front that stood in that 1977 by-election in Lambeth Central was? Did it really exist or was it a publicity stunt for the Citizen Smith series that started the same month (Tooting is just a few tube stops down the line from Lambeth Central)?
Mind you, there still seem to be plenty of Citizen Smiths about, at least on these politics threads.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
It was the other way round - the South London People's Front was a creation of a maoist offshoot, the 'Worker's Institute for Mao Tze Dong Thought' (or something similar) whose mad ramblings in the mid-1970s got picked up by the The Times and provided inspiration to the scriptwriters of Citizen Smith (led by the scene-shifter John Sullivan, later of "Only Fools and Horses ..." fame).
Cheryl Hall who played hapless Wolfie's girlfriend Shirley in the series (and was married to Robert Lindsay at the time) later went on to become politically active, she was a Labour councillor, parliamentary candidate in 1997 and leader of the Labour group on Kent County Council 1997-2001. I don't know if she is still active though Wikepedia says she is now a teacher in Chesterfield Derbyshire, so whether she backed the recent NUT strike would be interesting to know ...
Like many by-elections at the time, Lambeth Central showed the best result in an often crowded left wing field was won by the IMG-backed 'Socialist Unity' campaign, which irritated the hell so much out of the much larger SWP that they gave up standing in elections for 20 years.
To an extent i think the Wolfie Smith caricature helped shape the image of the far left and most peoples attitudes to it, though they did themselves no favours,
I also think many of these people don't stay involved in politics for the long hard slog it becomes once student life/culture is finished, etc.
I also think many of these people don't stay involved in politics for the long hard slog it becomes once student life/culture is finished, etc.
liampreston
Spend time, not money
There is a lot of truth in that. It is very easy for parties of all hues to sweep through University campuses signing up members for a quid, only to find that once the "fun" is over for a lot of members, their membership was barely worth the paper they signed. It is one of those factors, too, that students are not exactly as likely to join political parties anyway as they once may have done.
The "broad left" if I can call it that, does have an image problem but as with so many caricatures (the Tooting/Judean piss-take) they are probably fading with every generation.
The "broad left" if I can call it that, does have an image problem but as with so many caricatures (the Tooting/Judean piss-take) they are probably fading with every generation.
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