Left Unity/PCS Democrats win PCS NEC agaion

[Wildboar]

There are informal discussions between the SP and UL in UNISON re standing candidates in elections. By and large this avoids splitting the left vote but occasionally, as is the case in London in the Local Govt election, this breaks down and 2 left candidates are nominated. In the London health elections there has been no problems and a joint slate of a SWP (UL) member and a SP member has been agreed.
2 left candidates standing is regretable but it is not the end of the world and shows the need to keep talking and agree a full left slate next time. The saddest thing about these elections are the numbers of unchallenged seats where the right wing are elected unopposed.
The next General Secretary election in UNISON will show if the United Left are really genuine in working with the SP. Will they support Roger Bannister who has wiped the floor with both SWP and Labour Left candidates in previous elections?

 

[dennisr]

There are informal discussions between the SP and UL in UNISON re standing candidates in elections. By and large this avoids splitting the left vote but occasionally, as is the case in London in the Local Govt election, this breaks down and 2 left candidates are nominated. In the London health elections there has been no problems and a joint slate of a SWP (UL) member and a SP member has been agreed.
2 left candidates standing is regretable but it is not the end of the world and shows the need to keep talking and agree a full left slate next time. The saddest thing about these elections are the numbers of unchallenged seats where the right wing are elected unopposed.
The next General Secretary election in UNISON will show if the United Left are really genuine in working with the SP. Will they support Roger Bannister who has wiped the floor with both SWP and Labour Left candidates in previous elections?

thats a less jaundiced and more generous take on it than mine and your clarification is greatly appreciated. are you a unison activist/member wildboar?

 

[Wildboar]

thats a less jaundiced and more generous take on it than mine and your clarification is greatly appreciated. are you a unison activist/member wildboar?

Yes. In Health and not in London thankfully

 

[malcolj]

Why would you be dictated to by the SWP in the UL? Are they numerically bigger than you?

Can you state why the SP is running against Dave Eggmore, who is undoubtedly higher-profile and with a much better chance of winning than your candidate, if it's not because of his membership of the Labour Party?

I am not sure who wins in the high profile stakes Glen Kelly is an NEC member and a regular speaker at Unison conferences. Not being from London I had not heard f Dave Egmore prior to the SGE elections. Glen gave this assessment of Dave's record on Jon Rogers blog https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=30704611&postID=23589858420514480

 

[dennisr]

Yes. In Health and not in London thankfully

- excellent - I wish you had been around earlier - you could have cut across our meandering debate with a bit more information than the rest of us had.

Health = top people. You folk seen to be achieving a lot more in that section of unison

 

[dennisr]

I am not sure who wins in the high profile stakes Glen Kelly is an NEC member and a regular speaker at Unison conferences. Not being from London I had not heard f Dave Egmore prior to the SGE elections. Glen gave this assessment of Dave's record on Jon Rogers blog https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=30704611&postID=23589858420514480

Blimey - that sheds a lot more light on the fella Dave:
from the blog reply:

In light of the attack jon has publicly launched on me and the Socialist party I feel i must repond. Unfortunately Jon fails to address the real issues at stake in thid election. First and foremost we should start with what sort of leadership the London region needs and has Dave Eggmore lived up to that task. Is he "the good left winger who has done a good job in the last few years" as Jon and the United left describe. A brief glance at David recent record shows that Jons description of him is false and he deliberately tries to hide from members the real role david has played.

Pay battle last year

Our members are currently having to face a pay cut this year as a direct result of the timidity and prevacation of the majority union leadership in Local Government. Unfortunately the misleadership of local government was led by David (albeit not soley) who is the National chair of the Local government workers negociating body. David openly opposed the call from mine and the Knowsley Branch for a strike ballot in June confernce. The eventual call from the NJC for a ballot was not from David but from myself attending in his place in september. (many will rightly ask if i could win a vote for action at the first meeting i attended why had David a united left member not done anything in 7 months). The fact that we still won a ballot in October shows what could have been possible if a real lead was given early on last year.

Pension dispute

On the 1st April many of our members will be forced to pay more for a scheme that will see thousands of members losing thousands in thier pension. Many members are rightly angry that having put a million workers on strike in March 06 why did we then do a complete retreat and put our faith in the courts and negociators. What Jon and the united left fail to acknowlege is that On a number of occasions David oppossed motions i and others put forward to reinstate the industrial action including at the special confernce. A year later David did finally support the call for action, however this was on the basis of winning 2020 protection only, leaving all members under 48 losing thosands, part time workers paying more and with the right of the employers to come back for an attack every three years. (Once again the position david took was contary to the united left stated policy).

London Weighting

Having mislead this dispute through the use of selective action only, costing the union £3m we have ended up not even getting the miserly £200 extra for the low paid the employers offerered. Having taken action many members are still asking what has happend to the issue!

Single status

Many of our members are now facing the brunt of this deal being asked to pay for thier own re grading by attacks on thier terms and conditions or with one member is being asked to pay for another members pay rise with pay cuts. What stance did david take on this deal? He openly called for suuport for it, whilst I the SP and others warned that is was a bad deal which with no additional funding was bound to lead to attacks on our members.

School staff

whilst it is clear that remodelling has not delieverd for all members with many being used as teachers on the cheap, a fact that I and the SP warned about yet david advocated support for it. Now instead of calling for National grades binding on all schools within the local Government agreement David is now supporting and leading the call the governments proposals to take 250,000 unison members out of the local government workers national agreement. This will lead to schools members being further isolated to be picked off by bullying heads. As the chair of the NJC on all of these issues david has played a (mis)leading role not just a backroom role. What confidence can UNISON members have that he can now lead the fight for to defend our wages and conditions. Jon also attacks John Gray for his support for the Labour party but he fails to mention that David and himself as also in favour of funding the labour party a position that many members can not understand when it is the Labour government that is leading the attack on our wages jobs and services. The next period for the union is critcal, the lead given or not can be decisive. On Jeans retirement David has made clear that he is not prepared to take up that challange, unlike david I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is. What may bafffle many is how can Jon and the united left can be prepared to cover up and defend David crimes. The relaity is that they are happy to back David despite his record in order to block a socialist party member.

Glenn Kelly - Bromley branch Secretary - NEC member

 

[cockneyrebel]

The Socialist Party is of the view that we are better off bringing our arguments directly to the membership, including our views on the Labour Party. Our record in General Secretary elections shows that these views are rather more popular with the membership than the pro-New Labour views of the UUL.

Have to agree with glen, what a ridiculous and sectarian thing to say. The UUL aren't supporting new labour, whatever their flaws and to say this just shows you are trying to make pointless digs. Dennisr I know NI is in the same organisation as you but surely you can see that this is going totally over the top.

Interesting stuff about the London election from the blog though and I will forward those comments to the rest of the housing stewards.

Thats the nail on the head re our differences CR - no really interested in a 'united left' of the 'left' but a 'united left' of union members.

it is applying your endlessly repeated 'revelation' about the 'state of the left' (sometimes an overstated one...) to real politics.

As clearly and plainly outlined by NI - the membership are to the 'left' of the presently existing "United left" on matters of the political fund

Again dennis you seem to take everything I say as a view coming out of a pre-set programme, when that's not the case at all. In reality I am totally fed up with the tit for tat arguments between the SWP and SP about who is to blame for the lack of left unity. All the time Dave Prentis is the one who is laughing. As said we are trying as hard as we can to unite our branch on a local level and after a successful anti-privatisation meeting tonight we were discussing standing candidates on a "public service not private profit" basis.

I'm not saying that a united left of the left is the be all and end all by any means, obviously the important thing is getting members on board. But to be honest neither the UUL or the SP seem very successful in doing this. All I was saying is that at least uniting the left might be a springboard to that, and as the political differences seem very minimal other than the break from labour question I can't see why that can't happen.

Also where did I say that it was a "revelation" about the state of the left, it's just my view. Again where is the need for the constantly tetchy and diggy comments.

 

[cockneyrebel]

- excellent - I wish you had been around earlier - you could have cut across our meandering debate with a bit more information than the rest of us had.

Health = top people. You folk seen to be achieving a lot more in that section of unison

Me and glen are both UNISON activists so seem to have information as well.

As for health I think I'd hold guns on that. The UNISON bureaucracy is pushing for health to accept the three year pay deal and it looks like they'll get their way, unfortunately removing those members from the pay struggle.

Numerically, they probably are yes - not in terms of elected positions though, or role in major disputes - they have a lot of local gov/council employee members (post university education...?).

A needless dig. The SP have post university members in local government as well.

 

[dennisr]

Also where did I say that it was a "revelation" about the state of the left, it's just my view. Again where is the need for the constantly tetchy and diggy comments.

I've had an almighty abcess under my tooth for the last few days and very little sleep. Finally, this evening the antibiotics seem to be having and effect. So i may be somewhat tetchy.

But you have to admit - a) when it comes to diggy comments you are a master and b) come on you have been banging on about the 'irrelevance of the left for a year plus' - speak for yourself mate not me

 

[dennisr]

Me and glen are both UNISON activists so seem to have information as well.

Mmm - very different information regarding the UL candidate was being presented to that i just posted above. After all you are the unison activist - i would expect you to know more on the matter than me? and the other fellas post gave a lot more balanced view of the 'actual' situation in the majority of elections than you have been trying to present as the norm across the differrent union sections CR??

As for health I think I'd hold guns on that. The UNISON bureaucracy is pushing for health to accept the three year pay deal and it looks like they'll get their way, unfortunately removing those members from the pay struggle.

indeed - but it has to be fought - rather than rolling over and sticking ones legs in the air as some other sections seem to be doing

A needless dig. The SP have post university members in local government as well.

did i say it was a problem having a university education? - I would say most of the SP members haven't come into local government etc by quite the same path... but that is another matter...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Do I make diggy comments? Maybe I'm totally unself-aware but I didn't think I did and can honestly say I don't mean to. Maybe I need to improve my writing style!!!! All I can say is that I work very well with people in my branch who range from SP, to SWP, to Green Left, to Labour Left and the majority who are independent lefts. I dunno, if that's the case it must be a poor way of writing on web boards.......

I hope your tooth gets better! And I hope the left can get on better in UNISON.

And lastly maybe I do go on about the irrelevance of the far left too much, but I guess I do it in reaction to what I see as the current far left living in cloud cuckoo land. But I'm certainly not cynical or down beat about what we can do, indeed the meeting I went to tonight was a real morale booster!

 

[cockneyrebel]

Mmm - very different information regarding the UL candidate was being presented to that i just posted above. After all you are the unison activist - i would expect you to know more on the matter than me? and the other fellas post gave a lot more balanced view of the 'actual' situation in the majority of elections than you have been trying to present as the norm across the differrent union sections CR??

I don't pretend to know loads about region, I don't know enough. And as said it's interesting to hear the comments about the Dave bloke and I will pass them on to other stewards. All I was saying is that as a UNISON activist I do know some stuff about what is going on and I think that both the SWP and SP have some blame in what is going on, but couldn't say exactly how much blame lies where.

indeed - but it has to be fought - rather than rolling over and sticking ones legs in the air as some other sections seem to be doing

what do you mean? The health section from what I've heard are likely to accept the pay deal given to them and will be removed from the wider struggle against the pay offer.

did i say it was a problem having a university education? - I would say most of the SP members haven't come into local government etc by quite the same path... but that is another matter...

I don't know, I've met SP and SWP members who are post-graduate and others that aren't, I don't suppose either of us have the figures. And whether or not you have a problem with with having a university education your post was a blatant dig, are you seriously gonna deny that, otherwise what was the point of saying what you did?

 

[dennisr]

Do I make diggy comments? Maybe I'm totally unself-aware but I didn't think I did and can honestly say I don't mean to. Maybe I need to improve my writing style!!!! All I can say is that I work very well with people in my branch who range from SP, to SWP, to Green Left, to Labour Left and the majority who are independent lefts. I dunno, if that's the case it must be a poor way of writing on web boards.......

I hope your tooth gets better! And I hope the left can get on better in UNISON.

And lastly maybe I do go on about the irrelevance of the far left too much, but I guess I do it in reaction to what I see as the current far left living in cloud cuckoo land. But I'm certainly not cynical or down beat about what we can do, indeed the meeting I went to tonight was a real morale booster!

actually I rather hear about the meet tonight - I'll keep an eye out for your reports on the thread about it.

i do find it hard sometimes having a rational debate when i really cannot trust the way you present things on occasion. this spat over one election (one I know little about - did not realise it was even Glenn who was the SP fella - someone whos history i know well) is a good example of a certain lack of balance in 'presentation'. i honestly don't know why you sometimes do that here - you are straight up in real life. i don't think I have ever initiated one of the spats we tend to end up having - happy to continue and development them though. by diggy i would mean that very special CR/PR 'angle' you make on almost every issue - it grates on occasion - i don't tend do it unless something i support is attacked first

 

[dennisr]

I don't know, I've met SP and SWP members who are post-graduate and others that aren't, I don't suppose either of us have the figures. And whether or not you have a problem with with having a university education your post was a blatant dig, are you seriously gonna deny that, otherwise what was the point of saying what you did?

a recognition of the historically strong base among HE students resulting in a stronger base in unison local government on the part of the SWP?

(All in reply to a question about relative numbers of the two organisations in unison)

yes, i am seriously gonna deny this (being a graduate myself it would be unseemly to be making such a point...)

are you seriously going to continue trying to make the invalid point you are trying to make as to my motives?

 

[cockneyrebel]

actually I rather hear about the meet tonight - I'll keep an eye out for your reports on the thread about it.

i do find it hard sometimes having a rational debate when i really cannot trust the way you present things on occasion. this spat over one election (one I know little about - did not realise it was even Glenn who was the SP fella - someone whos history i know well) is a good example of a certain lack of balance in 'presentation'. i honestly don't know why you sometimes do that here - you are straight up in real life. i don't think I have ever initiated one of the spats we tend to end up having - happy to continue and development them though. by diggy i would mean that very special CR/PR 'angle' you make on almost every issue - it grates on occasion - i don't tend do it unless something i support is attacked first

I've posted up a quick report and it was a great meeting.

Fair enough if you find it hard having a rationale debate but I think web boards aren't great in terms of getting a point across. I never try and present things in a wrong way, maybe it's just my writing style.

To be honest it's not about the London election for me (and the extra information I've just found out is interesting and to be fair I've said I'll pass it on to other stewards). Indeed if I haven't seen all the information you can hardly blame me for not giving that side of things! Also I think you are a tad biased given you never criticise NI with his far worse style of posting and totally party-centric way of putting things across.

I'm just fed up with the in-fighting in UNISON of which me and the vast majority of members have nothing to do with and means Prentis, one of the most right wing and worst general secretaries around, gets a far easier ride.

Also I don't think I'm meaning to put any "CR/PR angle" on anything, it's just what I think, even if you find it repetitive. But maybe we're both self unaware as I don't think you always realise how aggro your posts come across. But again you're not like that in real life at all.

 

[cockneyrebel]

are you seriously going to continue trying to make the invalid point you are trying to make as to my motives?

That's how your post came across but if you didn't mean it that way, fair enough, I apologise.

I'm not sure UNISON has a higher percentage of HE students than other unions though.

 

[dennisr]

you never criticise NI with his far worse style of posting and totally party-centric way of putting things across.

I'll leave that you you lot. I think he was direct and too the point.

given i'm the one usually 'forced to defend the party line' on these boards i imagine the critisisms are more genuine if said of me

 

[cockneyrebel]

Although I find your posts overly aggro at times, I find NIs far worse and a number of people have commented on NIs posting style.

To be honest I wonder why I post on here sometimes. No-one ever changes their mind, if they're in groups they always stick to the line and everyone seems to end up winding each other up.

Given that there are so many different views in my union branch and people generally get on it shows how much easier it is to get on with people in real life.

 

[dennisr]

I'm not sure UNISON has a higher percentage of HE students than other unions though.

Thats my impression - maybe london-centric experience but there is that wide layer of 'proffessionals' with H E education and well paid lower-end local gov / housing buraucracy folk (theres also the big layer of low paid unskilled in unison - but it remains a very contrdictory union).

Would make sense to me as a way of explaining a preponerance of SWP members in unison - most of the ones I have come across are higher-end sections of the workforce. Its not a dig just a statement of practical reasons why that might well be

 

[dennisr]

Given that there are so many different views in my union branch and people generally get on it shows how much easier it is to get on with people in real life.

yep, thats true

 

[cockneyrebel]

Thats my impression - maybe london-centric experience but there is that wide layer of 'proffessionals' with H E education and well paid lower-end local gov / housing buraucracy folk (theres also the big layer of low paid unskilled in unison - but it remains a very contrdictory union).

Would make sense to me as a way of explaining a preponerance of SWP members in unison - most of the ones I have come across are higher-end sections of the workforce. Its not a dig just a statement of practical reasons why that might well be

Maybe you're right. UNISON is a bizarre union from that point of view, a total mix of white and blue collar and many different pay grades. Still I'd say most people I meet at work and in the housing department are working class, not middle class.

To be honest I don't come across many far lefts at all! When I worked in Lewisham there was me and one semi-active SWPer (a fairly low paid worker in housing benefits) and that was it. It always slightly surprised me given there are two SP councillors in the borough. That's not a dig but I thought a council with a far left representation might have more far left workers.

Where I work now there are two PR members, one ex AWLer, one SPer, one SWPer and that's about it other than a number of Labour Lefts.

Indeed the UUL only gets about 30 odd people to its London wide meetings and I doubt the SP would get anymore.

 

[dennisr]

It always slightly surprised me given there are two SP councillors in the borough. That's not a dig but I thought a council with a far left representation might have more far left workers.

parks and gardens and youth worker types in lewisham mate (actually a lot don't work in lewisham - elsewhere in london)

Where I work now there are two PR members, one ex AWLer, one SPer, one SWPer and that's about it other than a number of Labour Lefts.

lambeth is one of those special places

 

[cockneyrebel]

Special, that's one description haha! To be honest though it's 100 times better than the utterly right wing rotten UNISON branch in Lewisham that is run by a clique and gets 30-40 people to its AGM!!! I've really enjoyed being in an active branch that is making links with the local community.

parks and gardens and youth worker types in lewisham mate (actually a lot don't work in lewisham - elsewhere in london)

that's gone over my head! What do you mean?

Eeeek I'm off to bed. Didn't realise the time and I've got to represent someone first thing in the morning. Urrrgghhh......

Anyway I'm sure we both know our hearts are in the right place, whatever spats we have. Sorry if I write things that come across in the wrong way.

 

[dennisr]

that's gone over my head! What do you mean?

it the 'fields' in which the SP members in lewisham work

no need to apologise mate

 

[Wildboar]

- excellent - I wish you had been around earlier - you could have cut across our meandering debate with a bit more information than the rest of us had.

Health = top people. You folk seen to be achieving a lot more in that section of unison

It depends what you mean by achieving I suppose. The left in the Health group is small but growing. Unfortunately we have not been able to swing action on pay or pensions when it looked like a broad public sector movement was developing.

Things are changing however. This years UNISON Health conference succesfully stopped the right wing recommending the 3 year pay deal stitch up in the members ballot which starts next week. Branches are now able to make their own recommendations and campaign against the deal. The result will show what support the left can deliver amongst the wider health membership.

We also have the Service Group elections which could swing to the left but as I said we do not have enough left candidates across the regions.

There is more unity on the left in UNISON health loosley organised around the health activists email list but this has no organised structure and also includes members from other union's.

Arguments do occur such as at this years health conference when the SWP refused to have a joint meeting on the UNISON witch with SWP member Yunus Bahksh and the 4 branch secretaries from London. Instead they "allowed" Glen Kelly to speak from the floor. This stand confused everyone else on the left who clearly want to see united action against the right wing. Hopefully this will not be repeated at National Confrerence and we will have a joint meeting against the witchhunt.

As regards standing against "left candidates". It's not what you say its what you do. UNISON has too many people in positions who claim to be on the left and vote with the right when the crunch comes. If they do they can hardly complain when someone stands against them. That should apply whether your UL, SWP or SP.

 

[dennisr]

Things are changing however. This years UNISON Health conference succesfully stopped the right wing recommending the 3 year pay deal stitch up in the members ballot which starts next week. Branches are now able to make their own recommendations and campaign against the deal. The result will show what support the left can deliver amongst the wider health membership.

Yep, thats what I was thinking of - maybe reading too much into it - but i hope you folk can pull it off

As regards standing against "left candidates". It's not what you say its what you do. UNISON has too many people in positions who claim to be on the left and vote with the right when the crunch comes. If they do they can hardly complain when someone stands against them. That should apply whether your UL, SWP or SP.

I think thats a solid position to take and is the best answer to glennQs posts about the split left vote. having found out a wee bit more about the UL preferred candidates actual positions as opposed to his claims...

 

[cockneyrebel]

This years UNISON Health conference succesfully stopped the right wing recommending the 3 year pay deal stitch up in the members ballot which starts next week. Branches are now able to make their own recommendations and campaign against the deal. The result will show what support the left can deliver amongst the wider health membership.

Great news I didn't know about this, I thought the right had stitched it up again

Also thanks Wildboar about the info about the UUL candidate. Just gonna forward it to all the stewards and also cc Jon Rogers in (our branch secretary) to see what they say.....

 

[dennisr]

Jon Rogers in (our branch secretary) to see what they say.....

its Jon Rogers blog that the SP members reply was on - Jon then goes on to have a bit of further discussion about it (defending the UL candidate). I'd go direct to the blog to get a better idea of his already pretty clearly 'decided' viewpoints. (see malj's link above)

Its interesting for members - especially someone in his own branch

personally I was not impressed with his replies

added: I would also be careful how you raise it - the bit I posted was a direct reply by Glenn Kelly to Jon - you may be labelled 'an SP propagandist' (see Jon's reply to GKs comments - weak though it is)

 

[cockneyrebel]

its Jon Rogers blog that the SP members reply was on - Jon then goes on to have a bit of further discussion about it (defending the UL candidate). I'd go direct to the blog to get a better idea of his already pretty clearly 'decided' viewpoints. (see malj's link above)

Its interesting for members - especially someone in his own branch

personally I was not impressed with his replies

added: I would also be careful how you raise it - the bit I posted was a direct reply by Glenn Kelly to Jon - you may be labelled 'an SP propagandist' (see Jon's reply to GKs comments - weak though it is)

Oooops too late I've already emailed it out. But I did cc Jon Rogers in and did put a link to the blog (didn't realise it was his!).

I doubt I'll be taken as an SP stooge as on the "3 monkeys" leaflet the SP member said I was being too strident and inflexible in my defence of the victimised SP members haha!

In terms of what the SWP did on the meeting about victimised members I really think that is disgustingly sectarian......

 

[dennisr]

Oooops too late ... I doubt I'll be taken as an SP stooge as on the "3 monkeys" leaflet the SP member said I was being too strident and inflexible in my defence of the victimised SP members haha!

he, he, he - ATs got you sussed already (only joking)