left finished? .. time for a new movement

[kyser_soze]

You sound very demoralised

It's easy to be. People get involved in the left and think everything's going to happen soon. They think everyone will somehow get wise pretty quickly just like they did and get impatient when they don't.

Capitalism could be around for centuries yet, so play the long game

One of the more sensible posts on the long term subject...

Of course, no one wants to think that, even when presented with the alternative, people might actually choose to continue to be told what to do and meekly accept hierarchical rule...

 

[urbanrevolt]

Some people may but there's also evidenced that when people organise themselves not only can they get change but it is often the m ost exciting vital part of their lives.

My grandad helped organise, really intitiated a caretakers' strike, back in the 70s and to his dying day (well near it anyway) it was the one subject guaranteed to get him to come alive, enthusiastic, happy, and energetic.

yes we live in miserable times for the left and often things are shit but I'm a great believer in the exponential power of success, from small steps and all that

so let's get some little acorns planted!

 

[kyser_soze]

TBH I don't doubt the thing about self organising and it's uplifting effect on folks, I'm just a natural pessimist...but it does come from experience of leftists assuming that once exposed to their ideas people will instantly agree with them!

ATM I think it's got to get a lot, lot worse before it gets better. TO start with, the 3 billion of so people who live in the conditions that Victorian paupers would have rejected who have no cultural notion of class or Marxism...integrating Marxism into existing cultures in a way that doesn't turn the planet into one giant collection of squabbling SWP chapters...

 

[urbanrevolt]

...but it does come from experience of leftists assuming that once exposed to their ideas people will instantly agree with them!

...

That's part of what we've got to chnge of course in ourselves before anything else

 

[chilango]

TO start with, the 3 billion of so people who live in the conditions that Victorian paupers would have rejected who have no cultural notion of class or Marxism...

Who are you talking about here?

 

[kyser_soze]

Everyone who lives in what's called the 'developing world', and live on less than a $ a day...that's the global proletatiat, 2007.

 

[chilango]

I thought so.

You're right of course.

But....

you'll find that Marxism is very much alive and kicking in the developing world.

That might not be a good thing, mind....

 

[durruti02]

from people. As I say, there are many ways to interpret the world

An eg: if faced with immigration lowering wages what are the choices 1. attack the immigrants 2. join with them in unions to ensure no low wage scams by the bosses

spoin

i have to say actually this is a classic example of leftist narrow mindedness, of an inability to look properly and dialectically at issues but instead looks at issues thru narrow dogmticsim .. and i would strongly argue is partially to balme for where we are at

ok you decide 1) that there are only 2 choices ( incredible!! how and whyonly 2????)

and then 2) decide what the 2 choices are without any attempt at research understanding etc etc

in fact in this case ( and i did not choose this example here nino mc5) actually there is the third way ( ) of doing b) BUT also fighting against spivvy bosses etc as i bang on about

this approach works for many many issues ..

it is clear that the very narrow 2 options approach e.g.has alienated a considerable amount of w/c people who see it as the liberal left coming, yet again, with pre proscribed rules and regs that if you do NOT follow .. then you are a racist facist etc

 

[kyser_soze]

And of course your way forward was, among other things, is to give 'communities' power to say whether or not someone can move into them.

GO FREEDOM!

 

[urbanrevolt]

I thought so.

You're right of course.

But....

you'll find that Marxism is very much alive and kicking in the developing world.

That might not be a good thing, mind....

Depends where though. I guess you mean Latin America mainly? But also somewhat true of parts of India- is it? I'm just going off quick media impressions.

One place I worked where Marxism is far from alive is Ethiopia... most of the Marxists have been murdered mainly by others either claiming to be or once claiming to be Marxists.

There were quite a lot of inspiring examples of self-organisation, though

 

[audiotech]

spoin

i have to say actually this is a classic example of leftist narrow mindedness, of an inability to look properly and dialectically at issues but instead looks at issues thru narrow dogmticsim .. and i would strongly argue is partially to balme for where we are at

ok you decide 1) that there are only 2 choices ( incredible!! how and whyonly 2????)

and then 2) decide what the 2 choices are without any attempt at research understanding etc etc

in fact in this case ( and i did not choose this example here nino mc5) actually there is the third way ( ) of doing b) BUT also fighting against spivvy bosses etc as i bang on about

this approach works for many many issues ..

it is clear that the very narrow 2 options approach e.g.has alienated a considerable amount of w/c people who see it as the liberal left coming, yet again, with pre proscribed rules and regs that if you do NOT follow .. then you are a racist facist etc

What and where is the b) you relate to?

 

[chilango]

Depends where though. I guess you mean Latin America mainly? But also somewhat true of parts of India- is it? I'm just going off quick media impressions.

One place I worked where Marxism is far from alive is Ethiopia... most of the Marxists have been murdered mainly by others either claiming to be or once claiming to be Marxists.

There were quite a lot of inspiring examples of self-organisation, though

Latin America, Asia certainly. Africa too.

Ethiopa is a good example of how this Marxism hasn't done owt to solve these problems.

In neighbouring Sudan the Marxists (by and large) threw their lot in with the precursors of the current regime. A few are left in the various rebel groups though.

My point is that what the proletariat of th developing world aren't "missing" Marxism, class struggle etc. It is there, and has been for a while. Often royally fucking up.

Certainly "we" as Western "leftists" have little extra to ffer culturally, politically etc. that isn't already there.

I mean, what on earth could I ( should I) have said to the insurgents of Oaxaca about the need for them to adopt a good class struggle analysis?

 

[tbaldwin]

I guess he means get out there and listen to ordinary people's concerns, experiences, etc.

which is a fair point, though I think quite a few socialists actually do do that

Well there seems little evidence of the Left responding to the views and aspirations of those ordinary people in my view.

The left is not representative of the working or middle class in this country.
It consists of many people from the middle classes who seem to dislike aspiration.....bit fucked up....

 

[urbanrevolt]

Well that's your impression.

I think we can change that by having a campaigning left rooted in the communties

 

[durruti02]

What and where is the b) you relate to?

doh sorry

it was spions 2) about organising

 

[durruti02]

Well that's your impression.

I think we can change that by having a campaigning left rooted in the communties

which will be hard when so many on urabn at least ( and swpers i knew often said the same ) , that we should not argue that people in communities should have power, that we can NOT trust people in communities

 

[urbanrevolt]

not that I know of- I think ordinary working class people should have power

 

[tbaldwin]

Well that's your impression.

I think we can change that by having a campaigning left rooted in the communties

I disagree. There are loads of so called campaigning groups who seek to represent different communities......But are they really the voice of those communities.....Are they accountable to those communities?????

Is what you want just more of the same?

 

[durruti02]

not that I know of- I think ordinary working class people should have power

there has been a regular string of people expressing the opinion that this is reactionary and dangerous

 

[durruti02]

I disagree. There are loads of so called campaigning groups who seek to represent different communities......But are they really the voice of those communities.....Are they accountable to those communities?????

Is what you want just more of the same?

not sure he said this! think he said in favour if a campaigning left rooted in community which technically is very differrent from the self proclaimed community leader types