left finished? .. time for a new movement

[dennisr]

I thought being determined consciousness - therefore people's day to day experiences, their relationships with people and things and their struggles determined people's ideas?

this could become one of those 'half-a-dozen of one' and 'six of the other' arguments though.

being does, ultimately determine consciousness in my opinion too, but that provides the spark that is recognised in ideas from which one chooses so spion's point still holds true for me as well

 

[mk12]

in ideas from which one chooses

But where do those ideas come from? That's the question Spion was asking. I'd argue ideas are formulated through various ways. Whether that's through mutual discussion with family, friends, work colleagues, teachers (almost everyone), or through life experiences (work, education, background), or through reading...everything that happens to you helps to formulate your ideas. Not just one thing.

 

[dennisr]

But where do those ideas come from? That's the question Spion was asking.

ooops, i thought you were responding to his reply to your question about where he gets his ideas from. ignore me.

*goes back to acting the goat*

 

[Spion]

But where do those ideas come from? That's the question Spion was asking.

from people. As I say, there are many ways to interpret the world

An eg: if faced with immigration lowering wages what are the choices 1. attack the immigrants 2. join with them in unions to ensure no low wage scams by the bosses

 

[mk12]

1. attack the immigrants 2. join with them in unions to ensure no low wage scams by the bosses

From any people in particular though?

It's not quite that simple (although I think 99% of people on Urban would obviously choose 2).

 

[Spion]

From any people in particular though?

Me? From people who had thought long and hard about politics and class struggle

 

[poster342002]

I thought being determined consciousness - therefore people's day to day experiences, their relationships with people and things and their struggles determined people's ideas?

It does. That's how I can see that the left's on a hiding to nothing in this country.

Try arguing outside of this forum (the P&P bit at that) for anything remotely leftwing - you'll be told you have "juvenile politics".

 

[N_igma]

Me? From people who had thought long and hard about politics and class struggle

Yes but the Working Class Marx spoke of is not the same as the Working Class we speak of today. Industry is dead, mobilising workers into a mass of identical political conscience is nigh on impossible. Capitalism brought us shiny things, made us shut up and fall into line.

The left is dead, so is the right.

 

[Spion]

Try arguing outside of this forum (the P&P bit at that) for anything remotely leftwing - you'll be told you have "juvenile politics".

I know. People call us names. It's howwible. I think I'll give up

No, really, if you're getting argued into the ground you need to beef up your arguments

 

[Spion]

Yes but the Working Class Marx spoke of is not the same as the Working Class we speak of today.

Fuck me. Have you thought of telling someone about this? It's quite an insight

Industry is dead, mobilising workers into a mass of identical political conscience is nigh on impossible. Capitalism brought us shiny things, made us shut up and fall into line.

And yet the world is full of wars, poverty and struggle. The focus for the working class may have shifted to other countries but it's by no means dead, and is, I suspect, growing

 

[poster342002]

I know. People call us names. It's howwible. I think I'll give up

No, really, if you're getting argued into the ground you need to beef up your arguments

To the corporate-ladderclimbing followers of the cult of capitalism, no amount of rational argument makes any difference.

 

[N_igma]

Fuck me. Have you thought of telling someone about this? It's quite an insight

Then why mention it if it's not relevant?

And yet the world is full of wars, poverty and struggle. The focus for the working class may have shifted to other countries but it's by no means dead, and is, I suspect, growing

I can see a Cold War-esque period coming along soon, particualarly around Asia and South America.

 

[butchersapron]

And yet the world is full of wars, poverty and struggle. The focus for the working class may have shifted to other countries but it's by no means dead, and is, I suspect, growing

Why has the focus for the w/c shifted to other countries? Do you really mean that?

 

[Spion]

To the corporate-ladderclimbing followers of the cult of capitalism, no amount of rational argument makes any difference.

and never will outside times when crisis of the system means their comfortable world view just no long makes sense

I plan to read Live Working or Die Fighting: How the Working Class Went Global soon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Workin...0814051?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193236379&sr=8-1

Anyone read it

 

[invisibleplanet]

and never will outside times when crisis of the system means their comfortable world view just no long makes sense

I plan to read Live Working or Die Fighting: How the Working Class Went Global soon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Workin...0814051?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193236379&sr=8-1

Anyone read it

*wants*

 

[Spion]

Why has the focus for the w/c shifted to other countries? Do you really mean that?

in the sense that in, say 1900, there was no or little w/c in China or India. Now they are huge.

NB: I'm not saying there are no w/cs in Europe, but that the class has grown globally

 

[poster342002]

and never will outside times when crisis of the system means their comfortable world view just no long makes sense

In my expereince, even when they're under threat it makes no difference. They still cling loyally to the goliath that's kicking them in the teeth - so long as they get the privilege of kicking someone in the teeth in turn who's one step below them in the workplace heirarchy.

 

[butchersapron]

in the sense that in, say 1900, there was no or little w/c in China or India. Now they are huge.

NB: I'm not saying there are no w/cs in Europe, but that the class has grown globally

Well that's an entirely different thing than what you actually said - hence my post - and it's something that the class is dead people need to be able to grasp if they're going to bring their outdated theories up to date.

The single most signficant global development of the the last few decades is the absolute rise in old school working class wage labourers - there has never been a period in which more of these outdated people existed and the rate of increase is pitching higher by the year. It's an extraordinary developement.

(A far better book than Mason's on this is Forces of Labor: Workers’ Movements and Globalization since 1870 by Beverly Silver.)

 

[Spion]

In my expereince, even when they're under threat it makes no difference. They still cling loyally to the goliath that's kicking them in the teeth - so long as they get the privilege of kicking someone in the teeth in turn who's one step below them in the workplace heirarchy.

you've experienced war, famine, wholesale destruction of communities have you? Where was this?

I don't think the masses will adopt revolutionary ideas outside of very extreme times - the last time it happened was at the end of a world war and I expect the best chance in future will be in similar times

of course, the ideas for resolving such situations also need to exist for people to be able to take them up

E2A: I think that while activism in the here and now is essential, any revolutionary should also be in for the long game. This project could take centuries

 

[mk12]

We need to educate them.

 

[poster342002]

I don't think the masses will adopt revolutionary ideas outside of very extreme times

At the moment they're not even adopting reformist ideas.

To be honest, even if the shit hits the fan the most likely outcome in the UK would be even further reaction and growth for the far-right.

 

[Spion]

We need to educate them.

Are you trying to tell me something here?

 

[Spion]

At the moment they're not even adopting reformist ideas.

To be honest, even if the shit hits the fan the most likely outcome in the UK would be even further reaction and growth for the far-right.

You sound very demoralised

It's easy to be. People get involved in the left and think everything's going to happen soon. They think everyone will somehow get wise pretty quickly just like they did and get impatient when they don't.

Capitalism could be around for centuries yet, so play the long game

 

[lobster]

I do like the idea that the majority to get involved, perhaps in the form of participatory economics and participatory politics. However its still of interest to a small section of population. I once proposed to someone as a mere a joke, advertising on a big scale. We live in a consumer society, so we are going have to bring our ideas through that channel. That's one of my biggest gropes with the left , we are preaching to the converted , we need to get out there.

 

[tbaldwin]

can't you just answer the question instead of putting words into my mouth? Where will the majority of people get the ideas that can lead to real change?

Apologies Spion.
Should have picked up on this earlier. And yes to a degree, i did put words in your mouth. ( But kinda based on other things youve come out with)

The Majority of people get their ideas from each other, their life experiences and their influences.....Same as me and you..........
Now you may judge that your influences and experiences are better than the majorities.....Maybe they are.....Maybe there not.......
But does that give you the right to overule their views???????

As a Socialist i believe it is better to support the will of the majority, than any minority no matter how seemingly benevolent or enlightened.....

I have far more faith in the will of the majority than i ever will in the will of a minority.

 

[tbaldwin]

I do like the idea that the majority to get involved, perhaps in the form of participatory economics and participatory politics. However its still of interest to a small section of population. I once proposed to someone as a mere a joke, advertising on a big scale. We live in a consumer society, so we are going have to bring our ideas through that channel. That's one of my biggest gropes with the left , we are preaching to the converted , we need to get out there.

AND LISTEN.

 

[nino_savatte]

As a Socialist i believe it is better to support the will of the majority, than any minority no matter how seemingly benevolent or enlightened.....

As a what now? You're as much a socialist as I am the King of Naples.

 

[audiotech]

AND LISTEN.

Eh?

 

[dennisr]

Eh?

*spills coffee over keyboard*

 

[urbanrevolt]

I guess he means get out there and listen to ordinary people's concerns, experiences, etc.

which is a fair point, though I think quite a few socialists actually do do that


but yes it is a time for a major rethink of the left and indeed major rethink about how we can reconnect with ordinary people's concerns (including of course listening, not thinking we have all the answers)

so in that sense I quite like durruti02's idea

followed from the total mess that is the swp and respect is it not time for the likes of the cnwp and iwca and preston respect and the best of the rest to sit down and move to creating a mass progressive federal movement instead of the impossible and irrelevent attempts to create a new leftist party??

to a small extent that may be is beginning to happen- there's a small socialist unity initiative in Manchester gets about 15-20 people at meetings, not huge but is planning some united action and discussion bulletins

Think it could be a bit of a goer if taken up with different left groups and people not in groups agreeing some joint activity and also trying to discuss ideas in a new open manner

I'll go for it