left finished? .. time for a new movement

[TopCat]

The problem would be that all the groups you mention and others would initially attend but would want to control the project themselves.

The idea of working with swappies and other lefties fills me with dread.

 

[Wolveryeti]

I'd like to see a left with some economic heavyweights deconstructing the sacred cow of market forces using some good data and research, and putting their findings to the general population.

 

[durruti02]

The problem would be that all the groups you mention and others would initially attend but would want to control the project themselves.

The idea of working with swappies and other lefties fills me with dread.

absolutely mate .. i have tried this before .. and have got large meetings and agreements on working together, then as soon as they leave the meeting, they go back to normal .. it is the problenm with the vanguard .. they genuinely believ they have to do it alone as only they have the answers/programme

BUT then how DO we get the 'good' people ( who generally have left the er Left ) or are involved in day to day dog shite politics OR are sat in the pub/at home waiting for something worthwhile ...

then how do we get these people together?

hope you good!

 

[nino_savatte]

so everything is fine then? you do not think we are at an historical low and need to pull something out of the fire pretty sharpish??

p.s. on posting .. of course i put my vision ..( is that not what threads are for???) .. and yes like the vast maj of the working class and groups like IWCA, i see the left as,sadly ( having been raised fromn the craddle in teh left) as pretty well dead .. and what does that make me? .. angry and frustrated mate .. but unlike you i am actively seeking solutions

Typically, you're reading a post that exists in your imagination. You haven't even read my post and are making up the reply as you see fit.

Fuck me, you're arrogant.

 

[TopCat]

absolutely mate .. i have tried this before .. and have got large meetings and agreements on working together, then as soon as they leave the meeting, they go back to normal .. it is the problenm with the vanguard .. they genuinely believ they have to do it alone as only they have the answers/programme

BUT then how DO we get the 'good' people ( who generally have left the er Left ) or are involved in day to day dog shite politics OR are sat in the pub/at home waiting for something worthwhile ...

then how do we get these people together?

hope you good!

Lead from the front.

Get a good idea, implement it, have sucess, attract new people as a result, build on sucess, storm winter palace.

 

[audiotech]

BUT then how DO we get the 'good' people ( who generally have left the er Left ) or are involved in day to day dog shite politics OR are sat in the pub/at home waiting for something worthwhile ...

Good people and those waiting pissed in the local pub unite, you've nothing to lose but the keys to your front door.

 

[Spion]

and move to creating a mass progressive federal movement instead of the impossible and irrelevent attempts to create a new leftist party??

so, you've already decided what form it will take? That's me out

 

[biff curtains]

BUT then how DO we get the 'good' people ( who generally have left the er Left ) or are involved in day to day dog shite politics OR are sat in the pub/at home waiting for something worthwhile ...

then how do we get these people together?

hope you good!

The point is not to try and get people to work together simply for the abstract reason that "we need to" or whatever. The point is to organise around issues that effects people's day to day lives and make sure there is space for people of different points of view to work together as much as possible.

Either current or ex lefties or activists will get involved - or they won't, it is more important however to get people with no prior experience of organising to build their confidence so they can take effective action themselves.

It will take years and there will be loads of false starts no doubt, but we can start somewhere, and start now.

 

[Spion]

Lead from the front

in a non-vanguardist way

 

[Spion]

It will take years and there will be loads of false starts

i think we'll get a party together pretty quickly, but it'll take capitalism in extreme crisis for that to happen, for the various groups' competing ideas to really be tested among the mass of people

 

[mk12]

So we have to wait until capitalism goes into crisis? Is that what we're waiting for?

 

[biff curtains]

I really hope there isn't a party at all to be honest. Except one with dancing and drink and stuff.

 

[cutandsplice]

How about this for a new movement:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7051608.stm

 

[Spion]

So we have to wait until capitalism goes into crisis? Is that what we're waiting for?

I never suggested waiting. The job of gathering together like minded people can start any time, just don't expect massive success in terms of numbers outside of times when the mass of people are particularly receptive to ideas that can resolve burning questions

 

[lobster]

So we have to wait until capitalism goes into crisis? Is that what we're waiting for?

That goes without saying , the Bolshevik caused a revolution because of extreme poverty which the tsar could not longer control.
I know it was not capitalism that they overthrew however it was pretty much a political vacuum that there took advantage of.

The majority of people only work collectively together when there is a tragedy, which is when capitalism will be struggling, there will be two possible outcomes , a left movement or fascism.

 

[Nigel]

I'm The Popular Front

I use to be quite involved with the swp (us) which have chapters all over the world. They are infamous for having sticking to the "turn to industry" whereby members with careers give it up and work in factories where they try to recruit.

In many ways its self-defeating as a workers state would have people that do all kinds of work. There are quite infamous for releasing the themilitant and are strong supporters of Cuba.

They definitely had working class ethics at heart, no selling out to make up numbers. They turned up at all sorts of strikes and all members contributed money in order for one member to go to conventions when all chapters met up.

In England they did kind of seem out of place , but not alienated from workers like some so called "left" groups.

Although many consider them following Trotskyism, Trotksky was only trying to continue marxism by opposing Stalinism. Sadly many groups have that Stalinist edge to them with "Leaders" and other "bureaucratic" methods.

As to a new movement, i agree that anyone fighting for change at leasts needs to get together to discuss common goals. I still think that a vanguard party should be at the root of the movement.

They've got a bookshop in Brick Lane in East London, if you go in their you'll get a real lesson in Hard Sell & Multi Level Marketing. Good stuff on developing world; Excellent book on Thomas Sankara.
http://www.pathfinderpress.com/

Always seemed to find a similarity between them & the Revolutionary Communist Group.
http://www.struggle.ws/anarchism/writers/anarcho/leninism/frfimakhnovists.html
http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk/about/whatsnew.html
They both seem to be cults, that have an incredibly well argued, highly detailed, well scrutinised arguments & propaganda by very academically gifted individuals. But its complete bollox romaticising third world, lumpem working class. And the unconditional support for 'communist' countries in the developing world especially CUBA.

These two organisations are exactly what is wrong with the 'left'
One of the reasons why I, and probably many others do not call themselves 'LEFT WING.

 

[Nigel]

How about this for a new movement:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7051608.stm

Ex WRP.
Do you think he'll do something about all the Big Issues sellers in London!

 

[becky p]

A Red Green Party. Would be a good idea. But will it ever happen?
Too many petty arguements,not enough ideas.

 

[audiotech]

Particularly from you.

 

[tbaldwin]

The point is not to try and get people to work together simply for the abstract reason that "we need to" or whatever. The point is to organise around issues that effects people's day to day lives and make sure there is space for people of different points of view to work together as much as possible.

Either current or ex lefties or activists will get involved - or they won't, it is more important however to get people with no prior experience of organising to build their confidence so they can take effective action themselves.

It will take years and there will be loads of false starts no doubt, but we can start somewhere, and start now.

Good post i think.

The old hierarchical left ideas are shit in my view. Of course they say some good things at times about wanting to tackle injustice and inequality...But they are a bit like religious nutters with a faith in the path laid down by a book(s).

Real change comes from the majority not a well read minority who think they have all the answers.

 

[Spion]

Real change comes from the majority not a well read minority who think they have all the answers.

agreed, but where do the majority get their ideas from, thin air?

 

[tbaldwin]

agreed, but where do the majority get their ideas from, thin air?

This is the classic reactionary arguement. One that has filtered down thru the centuries................

" Of course we would like to see majority control,its just that the majority are not ready for it"

Its the litmus test of what people really mean when they describe their politics......

 

[mk12]

agreed, but where do the majority get their ideas from, thin air?

Where did you get yours from?

 

[dennisr]

Where did you get yours from?

... said the man in the toilet cubicle next to me ... i smiled meekly and made my excuse to leave ...

 

[Spion]

This is the classic reactionary arguement. One that has filtered down thru the centuries................

" Of course we would like to see majority control,its just that the majority are not ready for it"

Its the litmus test of what people really mean when they describe their politics......

can't you just answer the question instead of putting words into my mouth? Where will the majority of people get the ideas that can lead to real change?

 

[mk12]

... said the man in the toilet cubicle next to me ... i smiled meekly and made my excuse to leave ...

 

[Spion]

Where did you get yours from?

from people who had been or were active, or people who had studied history, society and class struggle and wrote about it. In other words, people who knew more than I did

 

[mk12]

I thought being determined consciousness - therefore people's day to day experiences, their relationships with people and things and their struggles determined people's ideas?

 

[Spion]

I thought being determined consciousness - therefore people's day to day experiences, their relationships with people and things and their struggles determined people's ideas?

Well, you can't get ideas that come from outside what it is possible to consciously absorb, but there are many choices available when it comes to interpreting the world, are there not?

 

[mk12]

I don't understand that, sorry.