Leeds NO2ID open Letter

[butchersapron]

This doesn't really argue that this will hit people in the pocket though. The only time it comes near that is, as i said earlier, based on trickle down economics, i.e this will stop rich people coming here and spending their money in local businesses that you don't own but may be employed in. Oh and one brief (8 words out of 271) unargued reference to potential higher student fees in amongst the handwringing over billionaires and the super rich.

No, i don't think people need be 'tricked' into fighting for their own interests, it's patronising to try and approach 'ordinary people' via football players - it's a hilariously bad appraoch. I suggested that it mirrored the approach of the mainstream polticians, the poltiicians that most people despise, and you make that explicit in your reply.

 

[butchersapron]

I strongly suspect this is a disguised lib-dem students attempt to situate themselves as liberatarian oppenents of overweening state authority in order to appeal to the growing youth vote - judging by the number of universities that have sent this alter to their locla papers, and more importantly the list of prominent local lib-dems on the end of each one.

 

[moon23]

I strongly suspect this is a disguised lib-dem students attempt to situate themselves as liberatarian oppenents of overweening state authority in order to appeal to the growing youth vote - judging by the number of universities that have sent this alter to their locla papers, and more importantly the list of prominent local lib-dems on the end of each one.

nonsense, Lib Dems have signed it as they actually care about stopping ID cards. They are not so up their own asses as to reject it for making an economic argument.

 

[moon23]

Why did normally conservative and mainstream people suddenly get the hump with the poll tax? Because it hit them in the pocket. Because of narrow self interest. If it teaches anything it is that it pays to spell out to mainstream conservative people how things are going to hit them in the pocket, not try and appeal to them ideologically. You thnk it is wrong to try and "trick" people into supporting your policies? Isn't that 'persuasion' and 'marketing' - the same thing people are subjected to by everyone else trying to get their support/vote/money.

Your right of course, some people would prefer to remain ideologically pure and make tokenistic gestures at trying to completely change people's attitudes. All this results in is a small marginalized protest community that is easily discredited in the public’s eye. Then there are those of us who accept the current playing field and make a real difference where we can.

I think this letter was great and well-written. Well done to NO2ID

 

[smokedout]

Your right of course, some people would prefer to remain ideologically pure and make tokenistic gestures at trying to completely change people's attitudes. All this results in is a small marginalized protest community that is easily discredited in the public’s eye. Then there are those of us who accept the current playing field and make a real difference where we can.

and then there are middle class liberals who believe that everyones needs are the same as theirs and that they are duty bound to lecture the working class on exactly how and why they should struggle who are motivated to become involved in reformist, impotent campaigns so stop them feeling so damn guilty about everything all the time whilst at the same time ensuring that nothing really ever changes

 

[The39thStep]

Shouldn't it be Sir or Madam ? Or even to whom it may concern?

 

[butchersapron]

Dear Corpoate media.

 

[moon23]

and then there are middle class liberals who believe that everyones needs are the same as theirs and that they are duty bound to lecture the working class on exactly how and why they should struggle who are motivated to become involved in reformist, impotent campaigns so stop them feeling so damn guilty about everything all the time whilst at the same time ensuring that nothing really ever changes

You really are quite amusing, but oh you right.... how I lie at sleep at night ridden with guilt over my vile capitalist reformist ways.

 

[smokedout]

On the subject of the financial part, I've argued on and off for a while that the cost isn't the way to go when attacking the scheme anyway - it's a useful jumping-off point but it can't be central because it's too easy to defuse.

I'm inclined to agree with this - except that it will become the issue when people are expected to fork out 100 squid for something they dont want or need and thats the time to highlight it - it would be all too easy for 'free ID calls for all' to become a noble climbdown on behalf of the state

the database is the real issue imo, especially given the governments incompetence recently at keeping information confidential

weve yet to be given a clear indication of what shape the databse will be, but if it follows along the lines of the childrens databse, which was based on the homeless link databse then were in real trouble and i suspect it will be

in effect any 'professional' will be able to enter information on any given individual which may or may not be true and will be held for the lifetime of that person

this could include medical details, criminal records, details of movement in and out of the country, benefit and financial information, information on drug/alcohol problems, mental health issues, relationships and sexuality etc

its then only a matter of time before both advertisers and employers start lobbying to gain access to it

unlike present databases, such as the criminal records bureaux this information will be based on opinion rather than fact

the homeless link databse has information such as x is very aggresive, or y was suspected of being involved with shoplifting - these comments are electronically recorded forever and can affect access to housing and other services for the rest of an individuals life

 

[smokedout]

Then there are those of us who accept the current playing field and make a real difference where we can.

I think this letter was great and well-written. Well done to NO2ID

yes, yes because NO2ID have been so successful in preventing the government from introducing this legislation, theyve really made a 'real' difference

 

[moon23]

Dear Corpoate media.

Yes that's where most people get their news from, so a sensible place to send any such letters.

 

[butchersapron]

Let's see if they print this red hot letter!

 

[moon23]

yes, yes because NO2ID have been so successful in preventing the government from introducing this legislation, theyve really made a 'real' difference

Succesful in lobbying the Lords to make amendments, succesful in becomming the largest civil liberties campaign in the country. Succesful in ensuring lot's of local council motions against ID cards, successful in ensuring a TUC motion got passed against ID cards, successful in working with the Conservatives to get them to come out against ID cards.

Not yet succesful at stopping ID card, but i'm hopeful ID cards will be stopped as i'm sure you are too.

 

[moon23]

Let's see if they print this red hot letter!

What letter, have your written an anti-ID card letter too? That's what we need more people writing letters opposing the scheme and out campaigning against them

 

[smokedout]

Succesful in lobbying the Lords to make amendments, succesful in becomming the largest civil liberties campaign in the country. Succesful in ensuring lot's of local council motions against ID cards, successful in ensuring a TUC motion got passed against ID cards, successful in working with the Conservatives to get them to come out against ID cards.

Not yet succesful at stopping ID card, but i'm hopeful ID cards will be stopped as i'm sure you are too.

successful in managing dissent about ID cards by focussing on issues which dont really affect most people thereby ensuring ID cards are more likely to come about with as little mass resistance as possible

 

[smokedout]

That's what we need more people writing letters

thats one of the funniest things ive read on an activist forum in a long time, are you on a wind up

perhaps we could launch a t-shirt campaign and a petition, we need a petition

 

[butchersapron]

I wrote a letter bemoaning the effects of the ID cards on the members of the CBI yes. The corpoarate media wouldn't print it though.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe a lib dem could ask a question in the house?

 

[moon23]

I wrote a letter bemoaning the effects of the ID cards on the members of the CBI yes. The corpoarate media wouldn't print it though.

Well I hope it does, i'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[moon23]

thats one of the funniest things ive read on an activist forum in a long time, are you on a wind up

perhaps we could launch a t-shirt campaign and a petition, we need a petition

Was being slightly tounge in cheek but seriously I know it's boring but very effective.

 

[smokedout]

Was being slightly tounge in cheek but seriously I know it's boring but very effective.

are you prepared to go to jail to stop ID cards?

 

[moon23]

Maybe a lib dem could ask a question in the house?

lol they do that is actually quite effective. I've got to dash now, remember there are different ways to stop ID cards. We should explore all the options rather than squabble amongst ourselves.

 

[moon23]

are you prepared to go to jail to stop ID cards?

Yes, i've publically stated I would be and signed the NO2ID pledge to that effect. Sorry really got to go now, but interesting discussion. I can see some of your points, but politics is a dirty game and you have to get your hands dirty sometimes.