Lebanon seeks ceasefire with Israel.

[tangentlama]

Looks like another war to me...
Rockets hit Israeli city of Haifa

Although Hezbollah said they would strike Haifa if Israel attacked Bayreuth(Beirut(h), and although Israel claim Haifa has been struck by Katyshua rockets from Hezbollah, Hezbollah claim they didn't do it.

 

[trashpony]

Nah, the entire legal framework surrounding the creation of the synthetic State of Israel is just sixty years old. A goodly proportion of the world's population remember life without it.
Further, they can see what happened to the Indians and the Abos.

They could just get the fuck out of the territories they illegally occupied in 1967 for a start - which is very recent indeed.

 

[Fuchs66]

Nah, the entire legal framework surrounding the creation of the synthetic State of Israel is just sixty years old. A goodly proportion of the world's population remember life without it.

But surely all states are synthetic to some degree, age makes not a jot of difference, the modern German state exists since the fall of the wall so it's even younger.
So you are advocating the destruction of the State of Isreal?

 

[Lock&Light]

They could just get the fuck out of the territories they illegally occupied in 1967 for a start - which is very recent indeed.

Indeed they could and should. But a two state solution is not acceptable to the likes of moono.

 

[Joe]

They could just get the fuck out of the territories they illegally occupied in 1967 for a start - which is very recent indeed.

You'll get no argument from on this...

Although I do accept that minor border adjustments are required.

 

[lewislewis]

The Gilad kidnapping was planned 2 months in advance (long before the beach shelling) and clearly presents the case that Palestinian militants have been planning to plunge the region into a state of war for a considerable length of time, when you couple this information with the fact Hezbollah have been strengthening their border position for months it would imply that this latest wave of violence is not reactionary or misfortune, but a precogitated act of aggression.


You have some fucking nerve pal, Gilad Shalit's family spoke up for the Palestinians and asked the IDF to act with restraint, yet you sit there accusing a shy 19 year old child of war crimes... Which war crimes is Gilad Shalit responsible for?

I'm sure the families of the dead Lebanese share that sentiment... You seem to have a complete disregard for human life where Israeli one-up manship is concerned.

Yep because the Jews have never experienced mourning or tragedy.

It’s sickening the way you spew out repugnant opinions with inequitable aplomb.

Need evidence that Gilad Shalit kidnapping was planned two months in advance.

I don't think the holocaust can be used as an excuse for Israel's actions.

 

[Joe]

Need evidence that Gilad Shalit kidnapping was planned two months in advance.

I don't think the holocaust can be used as an excuse for Israel's actions.

WHO'S USING THE FUCKING HOLOCAUST AS AN EXCUSE?!?!?!??!?!!!!!!!

As for the two months of planning, take it up with the Popular Resistance Committee - they made the statement.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Joe, I read the Israeli press very closely and Yediot Aharonot (one of the main Israeli newspapers) recently carried an article that revealed that the operation into Gaza was planned well in advance and the IDF were merely waiting for a pretext to enter Gaza, or as a senior Israeli general put it on Radio 4's Today programme when asked if the Israelis would end their military incursion if the soldier was released: "These are two different and unrelated news stories",

It was the same with Jenin 2002/Operation Defensive Shield. Journalists uncovered detailed IDF plans that found that this major offensive was being planned in the 90s in the middle of the "peace" process.

In speaking of an act of agression, you seem to ignore the daily agression and act of war that is the occupation of Palestinian territory

By the way, Joe, I don't recognise Israeli's right to exist, because it is a state founded on taking away the human rights of it's indigenous population whether they live under occupation or as third-class citizens in Israel.

Recent events show the reality of the 2-state solution, the only solution is a de-Zionized, secular democatic state in Israel/Palestine where Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians will have equal rights

 

[moono]

UE;

solution is a de-Zionized, secular democratic state

'de-Zionised', I like that. Then the new secular democratic state could be Semitised. Lol.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

UE;


'de-Zionised', I like that. Then the new secular democratic state could be Semitised. Lol.

By this phrase I meant the removal of all racist discriminatory legislation, so that Jews and Arabs have equal rights.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Again with the misunderstanding of Arabic [Hizb Allah] but anyway...Why would you EVER think that Hezbollah gave a flying f about "Palestinians? Do you even know about the schism betwen Sunna and Shia? Hezbollah has a pointed agenda. While willing to exploit the "Palestinians" as much as the next Muslim, in reality [just like the next Muslim] they could not care less.

Your labeling of Israelis as [expletive asid] "animals" shows your inferent bias. Of course those of use who remember your rather choice comments towards Jews in general should not be suprised. however, might you focus more on issues and less on propaganda?

As for you Ha'aretz piece talking about "Hezbollah helping HAMAS," the statement should be: "taking advantage of while Israel is heavily deployed in Gaza."

Plato: You are correct that Israel seems to have failed in not having fortified its northern border enough but there are delicate issues at play. Along many stretches of that winding border there are Arab and Druse villages that are cut in half by the border. Fortifying it anymore than it presently is would create hardships for those people. Until now, elctrified fence and sandtrack [along with observational towers and electronic monitoring] has been more than sufficient. Hopefully Israel will revisit the issue and opt to fortify as it has done along stretches of the Green Line.

Scarecrow: No offense but anyone who believes that Israel is an american puppet does not know a whole lot about either nation, nor about the Mid-East in general. As I ofdten state here, no nation has a friend in any other nation. At times however disparate nations DO have intersecting objectives. America and Israel's intersected in 67 but are now diverging. As evidenced by America's cutting off the military faucet in the near future the situation will be quite different.

LostExpectation: These are Grads which can hike 40 km on a good day. They happen to be homemade after depleting a large Soviet stockpile.

You are wrong about the "buffer," as Israel already played that hand and folded in 2000. It is not looking to reestablish itself as an occupying power, especially with the SLA in shambles.

Do any of the regional nations have the ability to repel an IDF incursion? NO.

 

[rachamim18]

Aldeberan: Your theory that the Israeli incursion into Lebanon is an American hatched plot makes no sense. Did America arrange the killing of 8 IDF and kidnapping of 2 others in a cross border raid? Contrary to your opinion, Israel is far from an American proxy. In fact, Israel's incursion is working against American 9interests in that it infalmes some of the coallition forces in in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: One thing, PIJ is not Shia. There are practically no Shia, aside from isolated Bedua, in all of Israel. What few there are live in Israel proper up in Galilee in the shia belt that crosses southern Lebanon. PIJ WAS founded on a distinctly pro-Iranian platform though so it is an easy misstep.

 

[moono]

UE;

By this phrase I meant the removal of all racist discriminatory legislation, so that Jews and Arabs have equal rights.

Yes, I know you did. By 'Semitised' I meant populated by indigenous peoples.

 

[moono]

US faces dilemma in Mid-East crisis
By Jonathan Beale
BBC News, the United Nation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5182290.stm

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Your labeling of Israelis as [expletive asid] "animals" shows your inferent bias. Of course those of use who remember your rather choice comments towards Jews in general should not be suprised. however, might you focus more on issues and less on propaganda?
.

Any thoughts on what kind of state it is where the leaders can make racist statements such as Begin who saw the Palestinians as "the two-legged beasts", Shamir who preferred to call them "grasshoppers", the assassinated tourism minister who preferred to think of Palestinians as "lice", or General Rafael Eitan who in the last invasion of Lebanon spoke of making Palestinians crawl on all fours and scuttle "like drugged cockroaches in a bottle". Isn't the most common term of abuse used by Israeli Jewish employers to their Arab employees, the phrase "donkey"?

 

[Aldebaran]

Aldeberan: Your theory that the Israeli incursion into Lebanon is an American hatched plot makes no sense. Did America arrange the killing of 8 IDF and kidnapping of 2 others in a cross border raid? Contrary to your opinion

I didn't mean the actual abductions, which in my opinion were at the very least delusionally foolish to even ponder about. I mean the dreamed pretext and occasion this gave for the incredible exessive Israeli reactions. It is not "instantly planned", such scenario's are ready to be used any time. That is something hizb'allah should have thought about and that is why the fingerpointing towards syria and iran - and especially iran- sounds so transparantly ridiculous for everyone with a functioning brain.
In my opinion, and also for as far as I am informed, these abductions were the work of a group that opposes the ongoing efforts of the lebanese government to have hizb'allah take part in the political process. Olmert seems to be out on deliberately undermining this. If his agenda is to overthrow the lebanese government he could eventually succeed. If his agenda is to give hizb'allah more popular support in lebanon and far beyond all while portraying Israel and the USA once again as "murdering hypocrites" he already largely succeeded. I'm almost at a point of sending him a telegram with sincere congratulations.

Israel is far from an American proxy. In fact, Israel's incursion is working against American 9interests in that it infalmes some of the coallition forces in in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You can't deny that both are proxies for eachother when and where it is convenient to be so.
As for "against US interests"... It can be somewhat annoying at the surface; they once again manage to set the whole international community against them, but since when did the Bush administration bothered to take that into account?
The situation in Iraq is not a point of concern; with or without these murderous Israeli attacks Iraq is already out of US control and getting out of control every day a bit more. Mentioning Afghanistan in such a context is not even relevant anymore.

In my view the situation would be very different if only the oppostion in the Jewish government had a stronger voice. I also don't think Ariel Sharon would have gone this far if only because of it is discrediting Israel itself within the international community.

Apart from my concerns about having a few fools (not speaking at governmental or military level) doing something that can give the US and/or Israel an occasion to jump on it and launch attacks on iran or syria, my concern is with reactions in the MENA region - and beyond - on a short and even more on the longer term. For those who sympathize with anyone who stands up against israel or the USA, the fact that a hero of the day eventually belongs to an other sect does not play a role. That also doesn't stop at MENA borders. All this can only create more trouble in the very near future.

shalom

 

[moono]

My overall impression of the effect in the West of the Zionist invasion of Lebanon is that the public, even a hefty slab of the American public, are appalled . Our 'leaders' couldn't have attracted more disbelief in their actions if they had been caught group-masterbating.

Early last week, a coalition of 11 major Muslim organisations publicly called on Bush to forcefully condemn the attacks on Gaza and to designate as "war crimes" the destruction of Palestine's civilian infrastructure.

After the Israeli bombing of Lebanon, the appeals for denouncing Israel have multiplied.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/590C011D-1B7F-46D1-BA7B-D39B148F0443.htm

 

[ZAMB]

You are being as realistic as a Native American or Australian Aborigine wanting the return of their ancestral lands.

This is BS. There are definite boundaries set by the UN - it's just that the US veto makes it unenforceable at present. The rest of the world recognises Palestine's right to the land that Israel still builds settlements on. But I think that there will be a legal end to it - that Israel [despite US protection] will be forced to withdraw.

 

[moono]

The US will fade, the will of the world States will prevail, in time.

 

[Lock&Light]

This is BS. There are definite boundaries set by the UN

My comments were referring to the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel.

 

[ZAMB]

My comments were referring to the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel.

I know, but even getting Israel to accept the '67 boundaries would be preferable to the vicious landgrab going on now. I just hope that 'wall' doesn't last as long as the Berlin wall did - and I very much doubt that we'd ever see a US president on TV expressing solidarity with the Palestinians.

 

[Lock&Light]

I know,

Why, then, did you call my comment BS?

 

[ZAMB]

Why, then, did you call my comment BS?

It was in response to this comparison

You are being as realistic as a Native American or Australian Aborigine wanting the return of their ancestral lands.

There is NO comparison to the Native American or aborigine situation. The countries of the world have judged what Israel is doing in Palestine to be illegal [with the exception of the US of course]. There was no UN around in the other cases to protest, and communications were so poor then that the rest of the world probably didn't know about what had happened in the US and Australia until long after it occurred and the victors had built their own mythology about what has happened. What Israel is doing now in Palestine can be more closely compared to Hitler's quest for "lebensraum"

[W]ithout consideration of "traditions" and prejudices, it [Germany] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 1

And we all know what happened to him, don't we?

 

[moono]

Lol. Take a squint at Sharon. Cosmic justice is just warming up.