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Lebanon Rally this Sat 22nd

editor said:
I'm not asking for "equal weight" (is anyone?) because it's fucking obvious that Israel is acting with an outrageously vindictive and murderous show of strength that is completely out of proportion, but an acknowledgement that the murder isn't entirely one way might be more productive in the long term, IMO.
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The murder is about as one way as any conflict will ever get in the real world. As far as I'm aware about a dozen Israeli civilians have been killed by Hizbullah's rag tag weaponary. Contrast this to the mounting piles of corpses in Lebanon, an entire country being razed to the ground by sophisticated high tech weaponary, god knows what the end death toll will be, Israel's previous wars against Lebanon have claimed the lives of tens of thousands. Some analysists are predicting that up to a fith of the population are going to be driven out of their homes.

Israel's war is verging on genocidal and so adovcate that demonstrators should march under slogans like "Against the bombing of Lebanon, against Hizbullah's rocket attacks" etc is to loose all sense of reason and proportion. It would be a bit like organising a demo following the Soweto massacre under the slogan "against the massacre, against ANC terrorism".

I certainly wouldn't attend a demo comparing Hizbullah's pathetic pea shooter attacks on Northern Israel to the imperialist blitzkreig being mounted against Lebanon. I imagine many others wouldn't either, although probably a handful of petit bourgeois über sectarians would turn up, if they could be bothered to get off the fat butts that is.
 
Balanced and thoughtful response. Very interesting.

greenman said:
The question is, why, on this issue, at this time do some people appear to want to a) Let apologists for Israeli militarism off the hook by not demonstrating and b) Let apologists for the self-defeating strategies of fundamentalists off the hook by not raising appropriate demands that add tothe official ones.
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I don't think it lets Israeli apologists off the hook, but they're going to write it off as "anti-Israel" anyway and that perpetuates rathers than halts the problem.
Adding new demands is unlikely to work, my opinion is seen as inappropriate by the majority here, on a demo I wouldn't imagine anyone being as polite nor restrained.

greenman said:
c) Allow the right-wing media to present any opposition to the Israeli offensive as only coming from fundamentalists and the far left?
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Given the stance of the demo this plays into those media hands well enough.
Fundies are going to claim it as a victory for fundamentalism, the far left a victory for the far left, and Zionists as proof positive of anti-semitism. I don't believe any of them need my help in making those claims.

Sure orgs like stop the war are interested in what Lebanese have to say if it fits with what they have to say, but if it doesn't what then? Rallys in the name of Lebanon which aren't welcoming folk like me with some humble Lebanese stock because their views don't quite match what's expected.
Give me a demo which is part of a solution, not just more of the same sad problem, let me walk hand in hand with Jews, Muslims, Christians and Aetheists, let us all shout for peace until we're hoarse and let everyone with a finger on a trigger, or hand on a bomb see us do it and realise there's another way...
 
Dhimmi said:
Sure orgs like stop the war are interested in what Lebanese have to say if it fits with what they have to say, but if it doesn't what then? Rallys in the name of Lebanon which aren't welcoming folk like me with some humble Lebanese stock because their views don't quite match what's expected.
Give me a demo which is part of a solution, not just more of the same sad problem, let me walk hand in hand with Jews, Muslims, Christians and Aetheists, let us all shout for peace until we're hoarse and let everyone with a finger on a trigger, or hand on a bomb see us do it and realise there's another way...
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Quick! Quick! Pass the sick bag!
 
I plan to go to tomorrow's rally (not London but one in York). Not out of any love for Hizbollah or their ilk, but out of opposition to the conflict in general - but that doesn't really require more explanation.

I do have a problem with the semi-romanticisation of Hamas, Hizbollah, etc. among elements of the left. While true sympathy is rare, there is a tendency to portray them as somewhat tragic heroes, thrown by circumstances beyond their control into a world where all they can do is fight. While this may often be true for those on the ground, those at the top are a different story altogether. Would-be ruling class like any other and equally capable - through money, religion, and promises of success - of manipulating others. Fuck 'em.

- Jonathan
 
editor said:
Nah, I don't see that as always being the inevitable logical viewpoint of anyone expressing concern about the killing of innocents on both sides.

Not at all.
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The march is a protest against the UK support for Israel's war of terror and is raising the demand that the UK stops supporting Israel's (and the US) murderous policies. It is more than simply a gathering of people saying war is bad, can everyone just be nice please.

Expressing concern about the killing of all civilians is one thing. I do think that raising condemnation of Hezbollah in response to this war plays into the hands of those who say that Israel has a point, and undermines the demonstration's protest and demands in response to our own Government's backing for Israel. I don't see the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah as being in anyway on a level with the actions of Israel. Both sides are not as bad as each other.
 
Be frank, Groucho, FFS!

You and your 'party' and others of your ilk believe that Israel should not be allowed to exist. That is a point of genuine agreement between you and the Islamists of Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. Hence your sympathy for them.

You and they have rather different hopes for what would be built on the smouldering remains of Israel. Once upon a time, your lot would at least have emphasised those differences, but not any more. You are now loyally and explicitly 'with the Islamists' (as Mullah Harman declared).
 
Kid_Eternity said:
So, who went, how many people showed, any pictures etc?
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I popped along for a bit and took some photos. As usual the reports of the turnout varied wildly - the police reckon it was around 7,000 people, but no doubt Stop The War will say it was more like 64 million.
 
editor said:
#no doubt Stop The War will say it was more like 64 million.
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30,000

From where they put the stage it is obvious that they were only expecting 2000.

Oddest moment: on arrival I was offered a bottle of water by two very cute young women - dressed straight out of a docco from Tehran.

Thought about converting for a moment :D
 
editor said:
I popped along for a bit and took some photos. As usual the reports of the turnout varied wildly - the police reckon it was around 7,000 people, but no doubt Stop The War will say it was more like 64 million.
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To be fair when the police say a figure my experience is to double or triple it (going by all the May Days, anti war demos over the years) to get a realistic idea of numbers. How many people do you think went?
 
Kid_Eternity said:
BBC news reported organisers expecting 5000-15000.
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That may be what they said.

I'm going on what they did - and a brief discussion with someone with more experience than me of sizing up venues, deciding where to put stages and so forth.
 
laptop said:
That may be what they said.

I'm going on what they did - and a brief discussion with someone with more experience than me of sizing up venues, deciding where to put stages and so forth.
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Fair enough, didn't know you knew someone in know...
 
Last time, someone had a link to a met police webpage stating the numbers the organisers had told the cops they were expecting. Anyone know how to find it?
 
Questions for those who attended

  • What proportion of those on the march shouted 'Allahu akbar!' or ostentatiously stuck their arses into the air to pray?
  • What proportion wore green Hamas-style headbands or shouted 'Death to the Jews'?
  • What proportion were Social Worker sellers or similar?
  • What proportion were CND-style anti-war types?
 
JHE said:
  • What proportion of those on the march shouted 'Allahu akbar!' or ostentatiously stuck their arses into the air to pray?
  • What proportion wore green Hamas-style headbands or shouted 'Death to the Jews'?
  • What proportion where Social Worker sellers or similar?
  • What proportion were CND-style anti-war types?
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Well at least no proportion of them were you! :p
 
* What proportion of those on the march shouted 'Allahu akbar!' or ostentatiously stuck their arses into the air to pray?
Why does that matter to you?

* What proportion wore green Hamas-style headbands or shouted 'Death to the Jews'?
Far less than 1%

Of course, JHE, if you had gone to the demo then the proportion of Hamas supporters would have been even smaller.
 
I'd say that far less than 10% were actually shouting islamic slogans on the march. It was mainly the typical anti-war stufff.
Of course there were many lebanese people there, who may or may not be muslims. There were lebanese flags everywhere.
 
Stop the War were saying it was 20,000. The location of the stage was dictated by the police I think. The rallying point of the demo was only agreed at the last minute.

A demonstration organised at such short notice with over 10,000 there was pretty good going I think.

Anyone got news from the other demos in Manchester, Glasgow etc?
 
I didn't like them either, but the point was (I think) to show that the IDF claim to be targetting Hezbollah and yet are killing mainly civilians.
 
BAKU9 said:
The 'We Are All Hezbollah' placards were delightful.....:rolleyes:
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Which organisation produced them? StWC, Muslim Brotherhood (MAB), Social Workers, British Muslim Initiative, Hezbollah (London Branch), Beeston Bombers...?

TAE said:
I didn't like them either, but the point was (I think) to show that the IDF claim to be targetting Hezbollah and yet are killing mainly civilians.
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Hmmm...

If the slogan had been 'We are all Lebanese', it would have been easier to accept your interpretation.

Still, you were there and if you think the slogan was not meant as a clear expression of support for Hezbollah, I expect you're right. ;)
 
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