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Lebanon Rally this Sat 22nd

TAE said:
Sorry mattkidd12, it was directed at Dhimmi.
I just find it really odd that people would not demonstrate against what the IDF is doing right now.

Just a different perspective, I'm against the whole damn thing and if there was a demo against that I'd be there.

TAE said:
What is OUR government going to do about the actions of OUR ally Israel?

I imagine our govt. will do very little if anything.

TAE said:
BTW, if we or one of our allies was doing to Israel what Israel is doing to Lebanon, I would protest against that too.

I don't doubt you would, I wouldn't dare to question your integrity on any of it.
Rather than rehash the same posts but in different threads have a butchers at this one, purely my PoV rather than anything else;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=4809798&postcount=15
 
JHE said:
Just a small way? If Hezbollah had not been attacking Israel, would Israel now be waging war in Lebanon?
Hezbollah attacked some soldiers who were patrolling the border and captured two of them. That was what started the war.

JHE said:
How many attacks has Hezbollah launched against Israel? How many rockets? How many deaths? (I haven't looked up the answers to these questions. I'm just interested in what level of Islamist anti-Zionist murder you regard as 'small'.)

BBC NEWS
The nine-day offensive has killed at least 306 people and displaced an estimated 500,000 in Lebanon.

The fighting has left 31 Israelis dead, including 15 civilians killed by rockets fired by Hezbollah into Israel.
 
TAE said:
Hezbollah attacked some soldiers who were patrolling the border and captured two of them. That was what started the war.
And before that particular raid... had they spent years not attacking Israel?
 
Do you think Israel would have bombed the crap out of Lebanon even if Hezbollah had not done that raid?
 
No, not right now. I think that raid was the immediate cause. (If that raid hadn't happened, another would, I guess.)

Do you think that Israel would be waging war in Lebanon if the recent raid with the kidnapping had been the only attack they'd suffered from Hezbollah?
 
editor said:
Yes, but this is supposed to be about people demanding peace and an end to the killing of innocents. And as far as I can see, that's happening on both sides.

But the reason I won't be there isn't because I don't want Israel to immediately stop their murderous campaign; it's because I'm not inclined to play along with Stop The War/Respect's selectively outraged political agenda.

what he said :rolleyes:
 
Dhimmi said:
It's heritage based and I'll not abandon it, but I'll not abuse it either... ;)

dhimmi comes from the sanksrit -dharma - meaning duty, doesn't it?


Dhimmi said:
It's slogans; * Hands Off Lebanon * Freedom for Palestine * Don't Attack Syria. * Don't Attack Iran are all laudable but the omission of *Don't Attack Israel* is more than an oversight as I see it.

hear hear.
 
JHE got the call right on this - from my having a Lebanese Maronite grandfather, if that makes any sense.
 
actually, I appear to have got that wrong.
Dhimmi, according to wiki, translates to mean 'protected',
'Dhimmi' is the status given to a non-Muslim living in a Muslim land.
 
whether people here want to sit and think up excuses why they won't march tomorrow while people are getting the shit bombed out of them with our govt's approval, the turn-out tomorrow is likely to be quite bloody good for a last minute demo. So do what you like, you won't be that badly missed, but I think your attitude stinks to high heaven. :rolleyes: :(
 
editor said:
I'm not disagreeing with that and have already stated my absolute disgust with Israel's actions, but there's still innocents being killed on both sides - so how come there isn't a protest against the Hezbollah missiles as well, and a demand that both sides stop their murderous campaigns?

This reminds me of the criticisms of the fighters in the Warsaw ghetto.
 
If people refuse to march because the organisers of the demo refuse to give equal wieght to opposing Israel's onslaught of Lebanon (flattening Beruit, killing hundreds of civilians, driving half a million people into exile etc) with Hizbullah's punny rocket attacks on Northern Israel (in retaliation to the Israeli blitz lets not forget) then they really have lost the plot. If, that is, they ever had it.
 
JoePolitix said:
If people refuse to march because the organisers of the demo refuse to give equal wieght to opposing Israel's onslaught of Lebanon (flattening Beruit, killing hundreds of civilians, driving half a million people into exile etc) with Hizbullah's punny rocket attacks on Northern Israel (in retaliation to the Israeli blitz lets not forget) then they really have lost the plot. If, that is, they ever had it.

Agreed.
 
JoePolitix said:
If people refuse to march because the organisers of the demo refuse to give equal wieght to opposing Israel's onslaught of Lebanon (flattening Beruit, killing hundreds of civilians, driving half a million people into exile etc) with Hizbullah's punny rocket attacks on Northern Israel (in retaliation to the Israeli blitz lets not forget) then they really have lost the plot. If, that is, they ever had it.
to put it in extremely polite terms.
 
JoePolitix said:
If people refuse to march because the organisers of the demo refuse to give equal wieght to opposing Israel's onslaught of Lebanon (flattening Beruit, killing hundreds of civilians, driving half a million people into exile etc) with Hizbullah's punny rocket attacks on Northern Israel (in retaliation to the Israeli blitz lets not forget) then they really have lost the plot. If, that is, they ever had it.
I'm not asking for "equal weight" (is anyone?) because it's fucking obvious that Israel is acting with an outrageously vindictive and murderous show of strength that is completely out of proportion, but an acknowledgement that the murder isn't entirely one way might be more productive in the long term, IMO.

If you think I've "lost the plot" for holding that opinion, well that's your call.
 
I think the question is -
Those objecting to these demos on the grounds of the slogans have probably previously been on lots of demos where they differed slightly or largely from the main demo slogans - think of people's differing views over how to fight the Poll Tax, over critical or uncritical support for the ANC/the anti-apartheid movement, about attitudes to the struggle in Ireland, about whether nuclear disarmament was ever likely to happen just by us asking politely(!)- in most or all of these cases, dissenting elements of the left marched and raised their own slogans or demands, they did not allow differences with the ideology of some of the organisers to get in the way of unity. Greens will be doing just this on Saturday. The question is, why, on this issue, at this time do some people appear to want to a) Let apologists for Israeli militarism off the hook by not demonstrating and b) Let apologists for the self-defeating strategies of fundamentalists off the hook by not raising appropriate demands that add tothe official ones. c) Allow the right-wing media to present any opposition to the Israeli offensive as only coming from fundamentalists and the far left?
 
Dougal said:
This reminds me of the criticisms of the fighters in the Warsaw ghetto.
That's really going to help this discussion.

:rolleyes:

Any other unrelated historical incidents you'd like to drag in, or are you finished with the off-topic personal point scoring for the moment?
 
Dougal said:
This reminds me of the criticisms of the fighters in the Warsaw ghetto.
Oh hold on. Look who you share your IP address with:

cherrybaby - banned
Mickeee - banned
sally bot - banned
SheliaB - banned
The Nig - banned
 
Fuck it. Take your own sign. Use your own message.

I would, if (a) I could be bothered, (b) I thought it would make one fucking ounce of difference, (c) I could afford to go to london and (d) I wasn't planning on spending saturday in a feild listening to shit bands and drinking cider.
 
Well, my compromise might be to come along for a while and help make up the numbers and try to resist the urge to set fire to any SWP newspapers.
 
Adds TopCat to that long list of banned alter egos.

<sigh>

Why don't banned posters try politely asking if they want to come back on to urban like the FAQ suggests?
 
Adds TopCat to that long list of banned alter egos.

<sigh>

Why don't banned posters try politely asking if they want to come back on to urban like the FAQ suggests?

Sorry for the derail. As you were. I'm just a bit pissed off with it all.
 
editor said:
I'm not asking for "equal weight" (is anyone?) because it's fucking obvious that Israel is acting with an outrageously vindictive and murderous show of strength that is completely out of proportion, but an acknowledgement that the murder isn't entirely one way might be more productive in the long term, IMO.

If you think I've "lost the plot" for holding that opinion, well that's your call.

I understand where you are coming from; I don't like to see any civilians die.

However, the problem with condemnation of both sides is that it gives ground to those who argue that Israel has a 'right to defend itself' by which is meant the right to launch military offensives against civilians. Israel is not defending itself from aggressors. Israel is responsible for the existance of Hezbollah (formed to defend Lebanon from Israeli invasion). Israel is responsible for the existance of Hamas and the PLO before them - formed to defend Palestine from Israeli occupation. Even the relatively new phenomena of Palestinian suicide bombers has to be seen as against the background of a generation of suffering and endless fruitless appeals to the 'international community' for justice for Palestine and the repeated murder of children by Israeli forces and the appalling conditions the displaced Palestinians have had to endure.

The media keeps saying this crisis 'started' with the 'kidnapping' of Israeli soldiers. The current situation actually escallated when Israel was backed by US/UK/EU etc in blockading Palestine after they had the nerve to democratically elected Hamas out of desperation. Whilst hostile acts have been perpetrated by both sides, one is the act of an Imperialist aggressor, the other the desperate act of the oppressed; as the massive disparity in deaths will show.

Now, as it happens I do not agree with suicide bombers or rocket launches against civilian targets. I do, however, believe that these are a response to Israeli imperialism and are therefore caused by Israeli Imperialism. Israel itself being a willing tool of US Imperialism.

On a broader issue, Israel is not the Jewish homeland - any country set up with a declared intent to be racially pure (especially if the land is already occupied) is a racist state and an aggressive state. Interesting that the pro-Israel Zionist lobby in the US excludes many Jews who find the actions of Israel abhorant, but includes many fundamentalist Christians of the pro-Bush pursuasion. Whatever the Zionists say this is an issue of imperialism and oppression and not race. Opposition to Zionism is not anti-semitic as Israeli apologists make out. I believe that Jews can live happily alongside any other race, and that Jews and Palestinian Muslims and Christians etc can live together in peace in the region, but that will not be possible while Israel terrorises the region.

So I'll happily be marching against the perpetrator of war and aggression in the region and I'll not be giving any credence to our Govt./media etc propaganda by condemning those who fight back, albeit in ways I find regretable. I'll be marching against our own rulers as well whose own war of terror has let Israel off its leash. We could be heading for World War Three. No amount of appeals to the oppressed to stop fighting back will stop Israel who have the support of the major Imperialist powers, including our Govt. We need to concentrate on breaking that support.
 
editor said:
Well, my compromise might be to come along for a while and help make up the numbers and try to resist the urge to set fire to any SWP newspapers.

I'll put one aside for you.
 
Groucho said:
However, the problem with condemnation of both sides is that it gives ground to those who argue that Israel has a 'right to defend itself' by which is meant the right to launch military offensives against civilians.
Nah, I don't see that as always being the inevitable logical viewpoint of anyone expressing concern about the killing of innocents on both sides.

Not at all.
 
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