Lebanon Elections - US support is 'kiss of death'

[fela fan]

This is the product of a person who has a lot of fine-sounding words and phrases but has invested absolutely no thought into those words.

Plenty of thought behind those words actually dear nino. Which is a light year away from 'absolutely no' thought.

And i can state that categorically because you have displayed the very tendency that i caution my students against adopting. So, clearly, i've thought about what i said before i posted.

 

[fela fan]

If you aren't spouting needlessly florid language, then you're coming out with shite like this. Regardless of which thread it came from, it is entirely germane to this discussion. You claim to have abandoned politics, yet you suggest on this thread that the American people become more politicised.

Wriggle away, that's what you're good at.

I can't believe you have so much brazen bullshit in you.

Nino: "You what? You're off your head. You said that on this thread."

FF: "I've never said it on this thread, and it's mindboggling how you got this mixed up."

Nino: "Regardless of which thread it came from..."


You can't even apologise for your mistakes.

And you tell me i'm wriggling. What about your gigantic electric eeling personation eh man?

You are a classic case of calling everyone what you are yourself. You'd better give your mirror a damn good washing before it cracks man.

 

[nino_savatte]

I can't believe you have so much brazen bullshit in you.

.

Projecting again, fela?

 

[nino_savatte]

Plenty of thought behind those words actually dear nino. Which is a light year away from 'absolutely no' thought.

And i can state that categorically because you have displayed the very tendency that i caution my students against adopting. So, clearly, i've thought about what i said before i posted.

Crap, it's all flowery words with you.

 

[fela fan]

Projecting again, fela?

But fela fan, you're off your head, you said it on this thread.

This thread d'ya hear fela, this thread.

Ah, well, it's germane to the discussion whatever thread you said it on.

You ain't got no grace to even apologise nino. No class at all. But yer good at projectin' man, good at projectin...

 

[nino_savatte]

But fela fan, you're off your head, you said it on this thread.

This thread d'ya hear fela, this thread.

Ah, well, it's germane to the discussion whatever thread you said it on.

You ain't got no grace to even apologise nino. No class at all. But yer good at projectin' man, good at projectin...

That's because I have nothing to apologise for. You're rather fond of adopting the moral high ground aren't you? If you find youself in a sticky situation, it's always best to pretend that you have a greater moral authority. It's shabby.

Oh, and you are off your head.

 

[rachamim18]

Yes, words of wisdom from a Saudi "reformer." A man from a nation that beats people to death for having a quart of beer. Yes, a "kiss of death" indeed. When Arabia allows women to drive autos and leave their homes without notes from daddy when they are over 50 tell Rasheed to get back to us.

Sure...Why should America give one iota about a nation like Lebanon? Lebanon does not even enforce its own laws, allowing an organisation that is 100 percent illegal under both its own laws AND International Law: Hezbollah.

I mean, democracy is kind of overrated is it not? I think more nations should emulate Rasheed's paradise on Earth. Why would anyone want their wife to walk around with her eyes showing? Perish the thought.

(Edited for poor spelling)

I love how cute Westerners take issue with the US offering a position on Lebanon when they themselves have absolutely no connection the land their own selves! Criticising America is handy, but then these whining syncophants do not have an inkling that they themselves are performing worse acts! At least America has both geopolitical AND economic interests tied to the issue, what do hypocritical "Activists" have at stake?

 

[rachamim18]

LondonBoy: Sadly, Lebanon has been EXACTLY in the very hands you warn about since 1973. It permits Hezbollah and its Revolutionary Guard batallion carte blanche. Lebanon refuses to enforce its own laws regarding parallel entities , never mind enforcing International Law within its own borders.

Lebanon's problems go to its very route. It is an artifical nation with no historical context whatsoever. Created by Colonialists to appease their Christain allies, it has been barely held together by a tacit agreement that specifies which ethnicity can hold which branch of govt. This was perhaps feasible back in the 20s when there was a nearly perfect split among the 4 primary groups (Christain, Druse, Shia, and Sunna). Today however demographis have radically shifted and thrown the system forever askew.

Then factor in its reliance on foreign powers to maintain a semblance of order (Iran, Syria, and yes at times even Israel) and you have a surefire recipe for failure. The question then becomes how long do Lebanese allow themselves to wallow in misery? The nation has no place in history nor should it have ever existed.

 

[fela fan]

The question then becomes how long do Lebanese allow themselves to wallow in misery? The nation has no place in history nor should it have ever existed.

Wow, why not use one of your nuclear bombs and waste it then?

You appear to have very little humanity running through your blood.

 

[nino_savatte]

Lebanon's problems go to its very route.

Surely you mean "root" and not "route". Lebanon's problems began when it was re-created as a latter-day Crusader state (the County of Tripoli).

It is an artifical nation with no historical context whatsoever.

The same can be said for many other nations, including Israel.

 

[rachamim18]

Fela: LEbanon is no different than ALL other Arab nations. In this sense, they has at least as much a right to exist as any other Arab nation. Their collective existence is not my concern, as long as it does not directly threatenn my nation's existence. As such, I would not waste one of our alleged 200 nukes on a single Arab nation, unless it threatened Israel.

Nino: Israel ALONE has both a historical context and 4500 years of continued existence on that very labnd. NO ARAB NATION has either. Bit of a different situation, do you not think? Even Egypt is a farce. Egyptians were not Arabs. Yety, noone can deny their cohesiveness as a nation at this point so the fact remains, if they are cohesive, they deserve sefl determination. They have it, as do 32 Arab nations not including PA, and 57 Islamic nations...

You are CORRECT that its problems go to its foundation as a Christains enclave founded by France. Colonialism breeds nothing but misery and inequity.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Israel ALONE has both a historical context and 4500 years of continued existence on that very labnd. NO ARAB NATION has either. Bit of a different situation, do you not think? Even Egypt is a farce. Egyptians were not Arabs. Yety, noone can deny their cohesiveness as a nation at this point so the fact remains, if they are cohesive, they deserve sefl determination. They have it, as do 32 Arab nations not including PA, and 57 Islamic nations...

You are CORRECT that its problems go to its foundation as a Christains enclave founded by France. Colonialism breeds nothing but misery and inequity.

You're like a broken record, an extremely offensive broken record. The "historical" record, as you describe it, is no more than a myth. All countries make use of myths to sustain their existence, Israel is no different.

 

[rachamim18]

So, Ma'sah'dah was a HAMAS fort? Jesus was a member of Fatah? Try looking at archaeology, genetic science, and many other things...

 

[nino_savatte]

Wtf? I don't know whose post you're reading but you should put down the crack pipe.

 

[rachamim18]

Except that Israel has archaeological and genetic sciences backing its claim in addition to indepednant historical accounts dating from the earliest era, no other nation even has one of those three.

 

[rachamim18]

Yes, it is like a broken record. I provide factual evidence, you side step by claming it is a figment of my imagination while not adressing a single point. Since this is so, and has always been, why engage me? Go play bingo and leave me to my musings.

 

[Tom A]

You're like a broken record, an extremely offensive broken record. The "historical" record, as you describe it, is no more than a myth. All countries make use of myths to sustain their existence, Israel is no different.

And just assuming that Israel did have a continuous archeological record that proved it existed for all this time (something I find pretty hard to imagine, since nation-states as we know them have only been around for the past few centuries (and whilst no one Arab "nation" can date itself back for over a thousand years, the Arab PEOPLE can trace themselves back to the orgins of Islam (circa 600 AD) and beyond). Also don't forget that Judea had been annexed by the Romans for a while), it does NOT excuse it from the gross human rights abuses being committed by it, doesn't matter if it was 50, 500, or 5 million years old, it doesn't give you the excuse to slaughter innocent people just because they aren't part of your glorious nation.

 

[Tom A]

Another way of putting it, there is probably evidence saying that the Celts have settled in the UK for the past thousand odd years. Does that mean that the Celts have the right to force all Anglo-Saxons, Jamacians, Pakistanis, etc into economic hardship, taking the best land from them, and generally treat them as third-class citizens (like how Israel treats the inhabitants of the Occupied Territories). Of course it bloody doesn't.

 

[nino_savatte]

And just assuming that Israel did have a continuous archeological record that proved it existed for all this time (something I find pretty hard to imagine, since nation-states as we know them have only been around for the past few centuries (and whilst no one Arab "nation" can date itself back for over a thousand years, the Arab PEOPLE can trace themselves back to the orgins of Islam (circa 600 AD) and beyond). Also don't forget that Judea had been annexed by the Romans for a while), it does NOT excuse it from the gross human rights abuses being committed by it, doesn't matter if it was 50, 500, or 5 million years old, it doesn't give you the excuse to slaughter innocent people just because they aren't part of your glorious nation.

Quite.

 

[nino_savatte]

Another way of putting it, there is probably evidence saying that the Celts have settled in the UK for the past thousand odd years. Does that mean that the Celts have the right to force all Anglo-Saxons, Jamacians, Pakistanis, etc into economic hardship, taking the best land from them, and generally treat them as third-class citizens (like how Israel treats the inhabitants of the Occupied Territories). Of course it bloody doesn't.

There are also thousands of Greeks who could lay claim to large tracts of Anatolia.

 

[Grandma Death]

Yes, it is like a broken record. I provide factual evidence, you side step by claming it is a figment of my imagination while not adressing a single point. .

Dear oh dear...thats fucking rich coming from you. Dont tell me you have finally found the evidence to back up your lies from 2006?

 

[rachamim18]

Tom: You misunderstand. Israel has continuous existence as a HOME TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE. No nation has existed for anything close to the 4500 years we have been on that land. However, among all existing cohesive groups of people, the Jews are the only ones to have ever had a ntion there.

What slaughtering of what inncoents? Now, that would certainly be hijacking this thread. While Lebanese elections DO pertain to Israel, Israel's human rights dos and don'ts have absolutely nothing to do with anything Lebanese....lest you mention the last War in Lebanon, then I would love to address specific instances.

Celts would certainly have every right to do what they want were they only even halfway cohesive group of people. As it is you canmnot even get a clear genome on any one group identifying with an appelation that classified everyone from Turkey to Ireland as a Celt at one time. With Jews, merely look to Y-Chromosomal Modalities as well as 4700 genetic diseases ONLY affecting us, as well as thousands more predominantly effecting us.

(Edited for spelling)

 

[rachamim18]

Tom: Since you have repeatedly raised this point, let me BRIEFLY address your assertion that we treat anyone like 3rd class citizens: NOT TRUE. "Palestinians" are not citizens of Israel. in fact, we do not even wish to administrate their lands, although those lands are actually ours through and through. In fact, 2 years almost to the VERY DAY, we ceded Gaza en tot. As we did, we had bobms aimed at us and Qassams flew over our heads. to this day, not a single day has passed with at least 4 (quite often more) Qassams landng in Israeli land.

We had at the time of Gaza also cded 5 administrative areas of the "WB" as well, and planned publicly andf otherwise to cede all the rest save 4% related to Jewish Holy Sites, which would then be offset by 4% of Israeli land. Sadly, Gazastan put a temporary end to those plans.

Since 1919 it has ALWAYS been in the people now calling themselves "Palestinians" ' hands. Now, as then, it is their call. Do not like our Cherckpoints (which are far more efficient and far, far less numerous than those of the PA, not to mention HAMAS)? Simply so one of 2 things: I) Put down the weapons aimed at Israeli civilains...II) Better yet, accept statehood and the responsibilities and duties that go hand in hand with it.

I could go on and on Tom but it seems you should first put aside propaganda sources and instead engage the truth.

Nino: Yes, Greeks could but then they have their own large nation, on their primary ancient homeland, unlike we Jews. Of course we predate both Turk AND Greek. When Aryans began drfiting down into Greece my ancestor;s bones were already in "WB" soil. Something to think about.

 

[Grandma Death]

Tom: Since you have repeatedly raised this point, let me BRIEFLY address your assertion that we treat anyone like 3rd class citizens: NOT TRUE. "Palestinians" are not citizens of Israel. in fact, we do not even wish to administrate their lands, although those lands are actually ours through and through. In fact, 2 years almost to the VERY DAY, we ceded Gaza en tot. As we did, we had bobms aimed at us and Qassams flew over our heads. to this day, not a single day has passed with at least 4 (quite often more) Qassams landng in Israeli land.

We had at the time of Gaza also cded 5 administrative areas of the "WB" as well, and planned publicly andf otherwise to cede all the rest save 4% related to Jewish Holy Sites, which would then be offset by 4% of Israeli land. Sadly, Gazastan put a temporary end to those plans.

Since 1919 it has ALWAYS been in the people now calling themselves "Palestinians" ' hands. Now, as then, it is their call. Do not like our Cherckpoints (which are far more efficient and far, far less numerous than those of the PA, not to mention HAMAS)? Simply so one of 2 things: I) Put down the weapons aimed at Israeli civilains...II) Better yet, accept statehood and the responsibilities and duties that go hand in hand with it.

I could go on and on Tom but it seems you should first put aside propaganda sources and instead engage the truth.

Nino: Yes, Greeks could but then they have their own large nation, on their primary ancient homeland, unlike we Jews. Of course we predate both Turk AND Greek. When Aryans began drfiting down into Greece my ancestor;s bones were already in "WB" soil. Something to think about.

I have a serious question for you.

Do you think its acceptable to make unsubstantiated claims to back up your argument, then when asked for evidence to back up those claims, do everything possible to evade doing so, including disappearing off the forum for a few months in the hope that this would go away?

If this was moono you would be pressing and pressing for the answers. Is this acceptable behaviour on a public forum?

Simple yes or no would be suffice.

 

[ymu]

G'luck with that Granny D.

Arabs don't count because they descended from Ishmael (the son of Jacob and his wife Sarah), not Isaac (the son of Jacob and a slave woman, who Sarah had sent away).

This means that the Arabs are not real people, and definitely NOT a nation. This is only true of the Jews, because they descended from Isaac and everyone knows Ishmael was a wrong 'un. We can't be entirely sure which Jews, because Jews originating in the Middle East are genetically indistinguishable from Arabs, and used to be called "Arab Jews" whilst the Ashkenazim and other groups of European Jewry appear to be, umm, European in the main. Then there's the Ethiopian Jews - with a strong claim to being descendants of the original Jewish tribe, but the European types running Israel tend to regard them as impostors too.

So it's simple really. The Jews are the only people with a claim to the land because the Bible says so. Except it doesn't. The Promised Land was promised to all the sons of Jacob. But Ishmael was a bit dodgy, as we've said, so it's really only the Jews. And David Ben Gurion was the Messiah who turned up to lead them back to the Promised Land. Or summat.

Rach can explain it much better than me, I'm sure.

 

[rachamim18]

Grandma (or whatever yo name is): I will ask you, as an adult, to address any imagined personal issues you have with me via PM. Unlike you, my life does not begin or end at a site where I hide behind a childish screename. If I hoped to evade something one would imagine I would post under a new i.d., not my birthname. While you were obviously waitng for me with baited breath, I was finishing my career in the army. Sorry if you felt underserved but I do suggest you get a life.

As for the rest, unless you talk of facts in direct relation to a specific thread in this specific forum, I will ignore you. If you do wish to talk of personal issues, feel free to PM me as I try and help even those that disparage my mother, religion, and ethnicity.

 

[rachamim18]

YMU:Arabs descend from Ishamel? I could have sworn they descdned from one patrilenial tribe situated in the Hejaz and emerged as aPeople some 400 years before th Common Era (BC). No offence if you get your history from the Bible but i tend to lean towards actual history and science, funny that way I guess.

Jews, anywhere are NOT indistinguishable from Arabs because of a little thing called a Genetic Marker. Using Markers, and specifically Y Chromosomal Modality, we know for a fact that todays Jews, Mizrachi, Sefardi, Danni,Yemeni, Bukhari, and even Ashkenazi all directly descend from the same Jews that were nearly crushed under thr Roman heel.

There is a tiny minority within the Arab People whoa ctually are nothing but converted Jews, as we see intrestingly anough from the Ashkenazi angle given your false belief, from a single case of congenital deafness shared between two clans: One Ashkenazi, the other "Palestinian" showing without a doubt a direct lineage.


Arabs are in fact a dinstinct People. "Palestinians" though only gained the distinction after 1948. They did not exist prior to 58 although there can be sen stirrings as far back as 1834 and the 1834 Riots, aka Nablus Riots. Still, even then they violently opposed any identity other than that of "Southern Syrian." In 48, as satted,, they coopted the term "Palestinian."

Ethiopian Jews are in fact less directly descended having sprung from a single garrison of Jewish mercenaries from the Tribe of Dan, oringally deployed to Elephantine in the Nile. There thye intermarried with locals and adopted certain local habits albeit with retention of non-Rabbinical Judaisim.

Zionism is a secular creed and rejects Biblical inheritance. Its claim rests with true histroy and science. Easily put: Arabs equal Arabai (Hejaz), Jews equal Judea. Ma'sah;dah was not a Fatah fort, nor was Jesus a member of the PLO.

 

[nino_savatte]

YMU:Arabs descend from Ishamel? I could have sworn they descdned from one patrilenial tribe situated in the Hejaz and emerged as aPeople some 400 years before th Common Era (BC). No offence if you get your history from the Bible but i tend to lean towards actual history and science, funny that way I guess.

Jews, anywhere are NOT indistinguishable from Arabs because of a little thing called a Genetic Marker. Using Markers, and specifically Y Chromosomal Modality, we know for a fact that todays Jews, Mizrachi, Sefardi, Danni,Yemeni, Bukhari, and even Ashkenazi all directly descend from the same Jews that were nearly crushed under thr Roman heel.

There is a tiny minority within the Arab People whoa ctually are nothing but converted Jews, as we see intrestingly anough from the Ashkenazi angle given your false belief, from a single case of congenital deafness shared between two clans: One Ashkenazi, the other "Palestinian" showing without a doubt a direct lineage.


Arabs are in fact a dinstinct People. "Palestinians" though only gained the distinction after 1948. They did not exist prior to 58 although there can be sen stirrings as far back as 1834 and the 1834 Riots, aka Nablus Riots. Still, even then they violently opposed any identity other than that of "Southern Syrian." In 48, as satted,, they coopted the term "Palestinian."

Ethiopian Jews are in fact less directly descended having sprung from a single garrison of Jewish mercenaries from the Tribe of Dan, oringally deployed to Elephantine in the Nile. There thye intermarried with locals and adopted certain local habits albeit with retention of non-Rabbinical Judaisim.

Zionism is a secular creed and rejects Biblical inheritance. Its claim rests with true histroy and science. Easily put: Arabs equal Arabai (Hejaz), Jews equal Judea. Ma'sah;dah was not a Fatah fort, nor was Jesus a member of the PLO.

Now where have I seen this cut and paste before?

Wot? No, spiel about "cranial dimensions"?

 

[ymu]

YMU:Arabs descend from Ishamel? I could have sworn they descdned from one patrilenial tribe situated in the Hejaz and emerged as aPeople some 400 years before th Common Era (BC). No offence if you get your history from the Bible but i tend to lean towards actual history and science, funny that way I guess.

Jews, anywhere are NOT indistinguishable from Arabs because of a little thing called a Genetic Marker. Using Markers, and specifically Y Chromosomal Modality, we know for a fact that todays Jews, Mizrachi, Sefardi, Danni,Yemeni, Bukhari, and even Ashkenazi all directly descend from the same Jews that were nearly crushed under thr Roman heel.

There is a tiny minority within the Arab People whoa ctually are nothing but converted Jews, as we see intrestingly anough from the Ashkenazi angle given your false belief, from a single case of congenital deafness shared between two clans: One Ashkenazi, the other "Palestinian" showing without a doubt a direct lineage.


Arabs are in fact a dinstinct People. "Palestinians" though only gained the distinction after 1948. They did not exist prior to 58 although there can be sen stirrings as far back as 1834 and the 1834 Riots, aka Nablus Riots. Still, even then they violently opposed any identity other than that of "Southern Syrian." In 48, as satted,, they coopted the term "Palestinian."

Ethiopian Jews are in fact less directly descended having sprung from a single garrison of Jewish mercenaries from the Tribe of Dan, oringally deployed to Elephantine in the Nile. There thye intermarried with locals and adopted certain local habits albeit with retention of non-Rabbinical Judaisim.

Zionism is a secular creed and rejects Biblical inheritance. Its claim rests with true histroy and science. Easily put: Arabs equal Arabai (Hejaz), Jews equal Judea. Ma'sah;dah was not a Fatah fort, nor was Jesus a member of the PLO.

Oh - I forgot, you're one of those weird secular Zionists who (not content with the pragmatic "we're here now - so what you gonna do about it") had to make up some other nonsense to make a claim on the land.

What is it again? Jews are the only people to have maintained a continuous presence in the historic land of Palestine. Come again? What happened to all the other people? Did all the Arabs up sticks and leave for a while - is that when the Jewish people staked their claim? When was that? I'm curious.


Palestinians have only existed since 1948? And Israelis existed before then? Really? The land was called Palestine for centuries before that - I dunno if the inhabitants were called Palestinians under colonial rule, but I do know that many Jewish Israelis whose families have been living there for centuries, prefer to refer to themselves as Palestinian. I have a friend who is extremely vocal on the point. You two should meet up for a drink - he lives round your way.

Thing is Rach - the Nation State is a 20th C invention so it's all a load of disingenuous nonsense now isn't it, really?

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Again, borderline personal but i will add this. You can easily embarrass me into submission by simply proving that I cut and paste. instead though, since you will never be able to prove a non-existent thing, try and confront me factually. I assure you, the truth is nothing to fear.

YMU: You to resort to ad hom nonsense when confronted with facts you are unable to deal with. Try something novel, dispute me on facts. Y Chromosomal Modalities do not prove we were here first? That we are the same Jews who founded both Israel and Judea? ?It does not prove Arabs come from Hejaz? All 3rd part histories do not prove these things as well?

As for weird secular Zionists, all Zionists are secular. Those with religious leanings are an abberation. the movement, as a modern movement, was created by Communists. If you ind the belief in sepration of Religion and State as something weird, I pity you. Personally, I feel religion is a personal issue that should not have any bearring outside of home or house fo worship.

I never said Jews were the only people to maintain a continuous presence anywhere. What I DID, and still say, and please despite this FACTUALLY, is that among existing people(s), only the Jews remain (of those who claim it as a homeland). The 1st Arab only entered history some 400 years before the Common Era/Christain Era.

The 1st Arab to enter our land was about 100 years before the Common Era, and then only as a Roman mercenary, based in what is now Syria. To live, the first entred with Khalifa Omar but even they did not settle. They disdained local women and culure. Only in the Crusader Era do you see settlement and even then, almost all present day "Palestinians" descend from Arabs who migrated to our land within the last 200 years,150 prior to Israel's REestablishment.

Even during the heaviest period of Jewish displacement, the Byzantine Era uunder Constantine, we stll rmeained on our land so that Tiberias, Safed, Caesaria, and yes, even Jersualem NEVER had Jewish minorities. WE never ceded our land.

Arabs though have NEVER had a nation there. They did not even consider themselves separate from all other Arabs until 1834, and even then most did not buy into that myth until 48.
My dad was a "Palestinian." Yep. Se, all people born within the UK Mandate had that false label affixed to their papers, birth certificates and such. Only in 48 did Southern Syrians begin calling themselves "Palestinian," and only in 54 did it become official within their owncommunity.

The word "Palestinian," or "Filastini" in local Arabic means "Phillistine." the Phillistines of course are the Sea People/ Phonecians of history. they were a prorp Greek people from Cerete. Their culture, if you really care, was proto-Mycanean. When Rome finally managed to put us under their boot after a vert bloody 300 year old war, they sought to humiliate us. Knowing we had already had our sacred Temple destroyed in the past, and that the event had not broekn us, they officialy renamed our land in honour of our direst ancient enemy.

If you ever make it to Rome, be sure to go see the Arc d'Titus. It is a commemoration of their plundering of our land. A plundering that included the razinf og 300 plus JEWISH villages..in of all places...in today's so called "West Bank!!!"

Prefer to call themselves "Palestinians?" Um, no. As a Jew whose humla is from Hebron 9currently still centred in Allepo due to Arab slaughter of our community in 1929) I can tell you that were you ro go to our nation and make that claim publicly, you might not last 5 minutes.

Even in the days of the Brits, it was despised label. A label put there by one colonialist and perpertrated by the British colonialists. In fact, you might be tickled to know that even Arabs hated it prior to 48. The first Arab to introduce it did so in 1922 and was almost killed for it before fleeing to Europe in exile. At thaqt time, and since the 1800s, they ghad opte for the title "Southern Syrian" and actively sought confederation with the soon to be free nation of Syria. After France dampened those lights of hope, they began to look elsewhere but did not decide on "Palestinian" until Jews could no longer be called by that anme, since there were now Israelis.