Lebanon army takes on militants

[moono]

No but palestinians single out israel as the object of their hate and yet we never hear them express the grotesque things the arab states have doen to them.

Getting weedier. They always start stroppy and then tail off into conjecture and wishful thinking.

 

[Peet]

when ?

See "palestinian exodus".

and although egypt might be pro US i havent seen Egyptian jets bombing the fuck out of Gaza

Egypt doesn't need to be "bombing the fuck out of Gaza" to use your indelicate and inaccurate phrase.

 

[moono]

Naughty spirit. I suggest ' ordnancing the fuck out of Gaza '

 

[Peet]

"Whether they're jihadists or not" is extremely important (despite how "armed to the teeth" they are).

Not so. Examine their role in the Labanese civil war. You'll understand why lebanon is twtichy about it al.

I would hazard a guess and say because the Arab states, who have done terrible things to the Palestinians in the past, are not continuing to do terrible things to the Palestinians today

Maybe because palestinians aren't launching suicide attacks and rockets at them.

(unlike certain Israeli action we see most weeks). Plus the Palestinians dont wanna move to Egypt they want to move back to what is known today as Palestine

You mean the west bank and gaza? Don't think so. Young palestinians and those a generation detached from the original fued would rather go elsewhere.

It's moved beyond specific ambition and more into the realms of pure race hate. See Hamas charter.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because leading scholars on both sides refer to his works and you can't attempt an opinion without having done some background reading?

I'm not taking any prompting from him though, nor would I from Pilger or Fisk.

Even AP manages to get the basics right...

"The Lebanese government is suspicious of the refugees, largely due to the role of Palestinian guerrillas in the 1975-90 civil war. It refuses to grant them citizenship, fearing permanent settlement in Lebanon would tip the country's sensitive Christian-Muslim balance in favor of Muslims. Lebanese citizenship could also complicate their stated right to return home to Palestinian areas."

In short, if lebanon has any hope of remaining (or returning to the status of) a liberal democracy it cannot allow palestinian settlement.

Should it ever happen Lebanon would enter yet another civil war where the non muslim minorities would be slaugtered or driven out and the subsequent sunni/shi'ite war would tear the place to pieces and become yet anther oppressive and brutal basket case of a country.

In my view you either support secular liberal democracies and all the values they hold or you don't. Lebanese palestinians have attempted to turn the tide of Lebanon during the civil war and tried an uprising in Jordan. The fact remains that palestinians are not welcomed by israelis or arabs or lebanese because they are trouble and alwasy have been.

I was referring to your childish "Would you expect Britain to open its borders to a bunch of rampaging xenophobic jihadists? Oh wait... we did." in my reply, given that Lewis has spent the last couple of decades peddling (among other dreck) a thesis about Britain (and France and Germany) allowing militant Islamists to settle so as to insulate themselves from Islamist acts.

Still, if you want to go into a torrent of self-justification to a perceived point, you go right ahead and do so!

 

[Peet]

Naughty spirit. I suggest ' ordnancing the fuck out of Gaza '

FI the israelis were "bombing the fuck" out of gaza it would be a little bit messier than it is.

What we're seeing is a somewhat measured response to rocket fire. It's targeted purely at hamas. Hence the use of guided weapons and not freefall bombs.

 

[Peet]

Still, if you want to go into a torrent of self-justification to a perceived point, you go right ahead and do so!

MI5's figures and statements tend to confirm the theory.

Undercover cameras in UK mosques are also quite revealing.

 

[CyberRose]

Not so. Examine their role in the Labanese civil war. You'll understand why lebanon is twtichy about it al.

I understand that but the Palestinian groups seem to be staying out of the current political wrangling in Lebanon other than this Fatah al-Islam, who are not likely representatives of the Palestinian groups and might very well be working as a front for Syria to derail the political process and stop the international enquiry into Hariri's assassination

Maybe because palestinians aren't launching suicide attacks and rockets at them.

Yes. Probably

You mean the west bank and gaza? Don't think so. Young palestinians and those a generation detached from the original fued would rather go elsewhere.

Like Egypt?

It's moved beyond specific ambition and more into the realms of pure race hate. See Hamas charter.

I don't understand the point you're making here or how it ties into the topic?

 

[moono]

FI the israelis were "bombing the fuck" out of gaza it would be a little bit messier than it is.

What we're seeing is a somewhat measured response to rocket fire. It's targeted purely at hamas. Hence the use of guided weapons and not freefall bombs.

And pray what was the rocket fire a response to ?

 

[Peet]

I understand that but the Palestinian groups seem to be staying out of the current political wrangling in Lebanon other than this Fatah al-Islam,

There is a pretty huge palestinian contingent in Hezbollah.

who are not likely representatives of the Palestinian groups and might very well be working as a front for Syria to derail the political process and stop the international enquiry into Hariri's assassination

that is the speculation. They're doing a hezbollah by going round doing the saintly act handing out aid in the camps. They're getting the money form somewhere. Probably Syria. They are poised to become the voice of the northern camps.

Like Egypt?

Anywhere. I saw a pice on google not so long ago. A poll suggest predictably that the youn uns don't give a toss about right to return to a place they've nver seen and have heard is a gun ridden hellhole.

I don't understand the point you're making here or how it ties into the topic?

Well, there seems to be a misconception that any offer on the table would appease the majority factions when they're publicly stated aims are the destruction of israel and the annhialation of jews. Short of dismantling Israel there's nothing they will settle for.

And does anyone beleive that the violence against jews and other minorities will stop there?

Jews weren't just fleeing nazis in Europe. They were chased out of north africa and elsewhere by arabs. It's an age old race hate involving two supremecist faiths.

Ordninarily speaking in such cases i wouldn't pick a side but Israel has evolved into a liberal democracy founded on equality and tolerance (except where arab terrorism and persecution is concerned.)

 

[Peet]

And pray what was the rocket fire a response to ?

Not in response to anything. It's nothing other than a strategic ploy to involve Israel in their civil war so as to absolve themselves from any blame and distract form their own failings. By the looks of it, it's working.

 

[disownedspirit]

There is a pretty huge palestinian contingent in Hezbollah.



that is the speculation. They're doing a hezbollah by going round doing the saintly act handing out aid in the camps. They're getting the money form somewhere. Probably Syria. They are poised to become the voice of the northern camps.



Anywhere. I saw a pice on google not so long ago. A poll suggest predictably that the youn uns don't give a toss about right to return to a place they've nver seen and have heard is a gun ridden hellhole.



Well, there seems to be a misconception that any offer on the table would appease the majority factions when they're publicly stated aims are the destruction of israel and the annhialation of jews. Short of dismantling Israel there's nothing they will settle for.

And does anyone beleive that the violence against jews and other minorities will stop there?

Jews weren't just fleeing nazis in Europe. They were chased out of north africa and elsewhere by arabs. It's an age old race hate involving two supremecist faiths.

Ordninarily speaking in such cases i wouldn't pick a side but Israel has evolved into a liberal democracy founded on equality and tolerance (except where arab terrorism and persecution is concerned.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

According to Perez, Gurion was a beleiver that jews could live with arabs until they kciked off and started sniffing round the nazis for help.

That would be credible, except for a few points:

"Arabs" didn't "sniff around the Nazis" to any great degree, although the Turks (with their long history of Germanophilia) did, and the German military had ties with the officer and diplomatic corps in Egypt through their old Ottoman connections (hence a number of German ex-Nazi "military" advisors" in Egypt in the first few decades after WW2). The most prominent (Palestinian) Arab to do so, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husayni, was hardly representative of the Arabs of Palestine, as he'd already, in the mid-1930s, deserted the people he claimed to represent.

David Ben-Gurion had already, pre-WW2 helped conceive a martial solution to the problem of Arabs in "eretz Israel" via recourse to the Yishuv's military resources. Histradut, probably the largest worker's union in mandate Palestine already had well-established social, political and military interests ready to be deployed at need.
It's also a matter of record that the pre-war Ben-Gurion held the Palestinians in deep contempt (as did the post-war Ben-Gurion), viewing them as ignorant peasants who could be bullied or bribed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

MI5's figures and statements tend to confirm the theory.

Undercover cameras in UK mosques are also quite revealing.

The problem with that claim is that the "facts and figures" that MI5 (and Special Branch, and the Green Slime for that matter) produce are coloured by excluding failed/erroneous surveillance.

"We" see what "they" want us to see, decontextualised from the mass of data and "spun" to serve a particular purpose. IIRC

Would you trust or even depend on data that you knew wasn't complete?
I wouldn't, although I'm sure that some people with agendas do, willingly.

 

[Peet]

That would be credible, except for a few points:

"Arabs" didn't "sniff around the Nazis" to any great degree, although the Turks (with their long history of Germanophilia) did, and the German military had ties with the officer and diplomatic corps in Egypt through their old Ottoman connections (hence a number of German ex-Nazi "military" advisors" in Egypt in the first few decades after WW2). The most prominent (Palestinian) Arab to do so, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husayni, was hardly representative of the Arabs of Palestine, as he'd already, in the mid-1930s, deserted the people he claimed to represent.

yep...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

David Ben-Gurion had already, pre-WW2 helped conceive a martial solution to the problem of Arabs in "eretz Israel" via recourse to the Yishuv's military resources. Histradut, probably the largest worker's union in mandate Palestine already had well-established social, political and military interests ready to be deployed at need.
It's also a matter of record that the pre-war Ben-Gurion held the Palestinians in deep contempt (as did the post-war Ben-Gurion), viewing them as ignorant peasants who could be bullied or bribed.

Interesting. Thats half the problem with reading Ben Wicks. He tells the stroy through Perez. Perez was a huge admirer of Gurion and the private side of the man often conflicts with his public statments. I'm inclined to beleive he was realist and had contingencies.

 

[Peet]

Would you trust or even depend on data that you knew wasn't complete?
I wouldn't, although I'm sure that some people with agendas do, willingly.

I know from talking to folks who attend mosque in Dewsbury that they have had jihadists doing the rounds trying to flog extremest audio tapes and literature. They called the police.

I don't beleive there isn't a single shred of truth in the Londonistan theory.

 

[nino_savatte]

That would be credible, except for a few points:

"Arabs" didn't "sniff around the Nazis" to any great degree, although the Turks (with their long history of Germanophilia) did, and the German military had ties with the officer and diplomatic corps in Egypt through their old Ottoman connections (hence a number of German ex-Nazi "military" advisors" in Egypt in the first few decades after WW2). The most prominent (Palestinian) Arab to do so, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husayni, was hardly representative of the Arabs of Palestine, as he'd already, in the mid-1930s, deserted the people he claimed to represent.

David Ben-Gurion had already, pre-WW2 helped conceive a martial solution to the problem of Arabs in "eretz Israel" via recourse to the Yishuv's military resources. Histradut, probably the largest worker's union in mandate Palestine already had well-established social, political and military interests ready to be deployed at need.
It's also a matter of record that the pre-war Ben-Gurion held the Palestinians in deep contempt (as did the post-war Ben-Gurion), viewing them as ignorant peasants who could be bullied or bribed.

There was the pro-Nazi regime of Rashid Ali al-Kaylani in Iraq between 1940-41. It was toppled very quickly by the British and probably didn't enjoy widespread support, since Rashid Ali (and others) had seized power in a coup in 1941.

 

[CyberRose]

There is a pretty huge palestinian contingent in Hezbollah.

Do you have a source for that?

that is the speculation. They're doing a hezbollah by going round doing the saintly act handing out aid in the camps. They're getting the money form somewhere. Probably Syria. They are poised to become the voice of the northern camps.

But if they aren't a Palestinian group why are you trying to blame the Palestinians for their acts? They may contain Palestinians but when the PLO (and other major Palestinian factions in the country) say they are nothing to do with them, then why continue to use Fatah al-Islam to have a pop at the Palestinians??

Anywhere. I saw a pice on google not so long ago. A poll suggest predictably that the youn uns don't give a toss about right to return to a place they've nver seen and have heard is a gun ridden hellhole.

Then perhaps the emphasis should be on making it a "not-a-gun-ridden-hellhole"?

Well, there seems to be a misconception that any offer on the table would appease the majority factions when they're publicly stated aims are the destruction of israel and the annhialation of jews. Short of dismantling Israel there's nothing they will settle for.

That is the problem. Hamas still stick to their charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. Until they change that (or until they are voted out of power by Palestinians) there will be no advance in the peace process and things will probably continue to get worse. However, you're wrong to say "the majority of factions" as Hamas only account for half, maybe less of the Palestinians (and the main reason they were voted in was cos of corruption in the Fatah, not because they all agreed Israel should be destroyed). The PLO (which I think do account for a majority) have renounced the destruction of Israel and have called for a two state solution. I also think Hamas will go down that riad if it can deal with the more radical elements in it's wings

Jews weren't just fleeing nazis in Europe. They were chased out of north africa and elsewhere by arabs. It's an age old race hate involving two supremecist faiths.

No its not. When the Christians invaded in the Crusades, they rounded up Jews in buildings and set fire to them. The Muslims protected the Jews from the Christians during this time. Only recently (20th C ish) has this 'clash of religions' broke out. And that is more to do with circumstantial matters rather than religious doctrine (if you look at what the Islamists have written they actually have a lot of respect for "peoples of the book" ie Jews/Christians and while they wouldn't be equal, they would be looked after and respected in Islamist societies - well, on paper that is!!!)

Ordninarily speaking in such cases i wouldn't pick a side but Israel has evolved into a liberal democracy founded on equality and tolerance (except where arab terrorism and persecution is concerned.)

But can you not see that unilateral Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories contribute to the way the Palestinians view Israel? The settlements for example or the restrictions placed on Palestinians? Can you not see how some of Israel's actions might, maybe, piss the Palestinians off just a tad??

 

[Peet]

Do you have a source for that?

Not off hand. google it.

But if they aren't a Palestinian group why are you trying to blame the Palestinians for their acts?

Oh they are palestinian and they're membership is. just because the money comes form elsewhere doesn't make em any less so.

They may contain Palestinians but when the PLO (and other major Palestinian factions in the country) say they are nothing to do with them, then why continue to use Fatah al-Islam to have a pop at the Palestinians??

Because their aims and ideology is not hugely dissimilar to mainstream palestinian organisations.

Then perhaps the emphasis should be on making it a "not-a-gun-ridden-hellhole"?

Who is brave enough to try?

That is the problem. Hamas still stick to their charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. Until they change that (or until they are voted out of power by Palestinians) there will be no advance in the peace process and things will probably continue to get worse.

Assuming Fatah are the "moderates" and turn out to be any better.

However, you're wrong to say "the majority of factions" as Hamas only account for half, maybe less of the Palestinians (and the main reason they were voted in was cos of corruption in the Fatah, not because they all agreed Israel should be destroyed).

Tough. actions at the ballot box have consequences. Thats like voting in the bnp to solve the law and order problems. Voting in jihadists is not on and the civilized west is right not to have a damn thing to do with them.

The PLO (which I think do account for a majority) have renounced the destruction of Israel and have called for a two state solution. I also think Hamas will go down that riad if it can deal with the more radical elements in it's wings

You're quite the optimist. The thing is, they have a state or authority and Israel withdrew from the WB and gaza. They have been given more aid money than any ethnic group on the planet. All they've had to do is stop fighting Israel and recognise it as a country. But that is a no no for Hamas.

No its not. When the Christians invaded in the Crusades, they rounded up Jews in buildings and set fire to them. The Muslims protected the Jews from the Christians during this time. Only recently (20th C ish) has this 'clash of religions' broke out. And that is more to do with circumstantial matters rather than religious doctrine (if you look at what the Islamists have written they actually have a lot of respect for "peoples of the book" ie Jews/Christians and while they wouldn't be equal, they would be looked after and respected in Islamist societies - well, on paper that is!!!)

Thats a debate for another thread methinks. This can go all the way back to thew 7th century and involves a level of theological deabate i don't think either of us are qualified to enter. I can find extracts in both texts which jar with general principles of liberalism and respect for iother cultures.

But can you not see that unilateral Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories contribute to the way the Palestinians view Israel?

Er what occupied terrirories?

Israel withdrew.

Israel has made several consessions and all it asks for in return is a cesation of violence and recogniton.

The settlements for example or the restrictions placed on Palestinians? Can you not see how some of Israel's actions might, maybe, piss the Palestinians off just a tad??

Thats no excuse for suicude bombings and rockets and the indoctrination of children to hate jews. They elect Hamas to speak for them... there are consequences.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yep...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

Althoough where they say he "fled to Germany" is a bit of a ringer because he'd already been in Europe since around 1936.

Interesting. Thats half the problem with reading Ben Wicks. He tells the stroy through Perez. Perez was a huge admirer of Gurion and the private side of the man often conflicts with his public statments. I'm inclined to beleive he was realist and had contingencies.

I tend to try to read material from every POV on a subject, because there are always pieces of information withheld by one or another biographer or historian for reasons of..I wouldn't exactly say ideological bias, but because they don't feel it appropriate to the character of the person they're speaking of.

I've probably found more (quality-wise) info on Ben-Gurion from reading stuff about mandate and pre-mandate Palestine over the last 30-odd years than I have from biographies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't beleive there isn't a single shred of truth in the Londonistan theory.

I don't believe there is, not in the Melanie Philips version, anyway.

I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that Britain, along with France and Germany (and indeed the USA) gave succour to people who were dangerous Islamist militants, that those states did so because they thought they could ride the wind, and that we've reaped the whirlwind, but I don't acknowledge that either the scale or depth to which the various intelligence branches have claimed the UK has been penetrated is supportable by the evidence that has so far been put before the public.

 

[Peet]

Lies, damn lies and Melanie Phillips

 

[moono]

Veteran reporter Nicholas Blanford explains what is happening in Lebanon.

http://www.juancole.com/

 

[Peet]

Veteran reporter Nicholas Blanford explains what is happening in Lebanon.

http://www.juancole.com/

Seems vaguely plausible but some of his story borrows from Fisk whom I trust as far as I could comfortably spit out a rat.

The language is also obviously slanted by ignorance or deception.

It is also Nicholas Blanford of the Daily Star who was taken for a ride by Hezbollah over the Qana bombing. Pinch of salt.

 

[moono]

Lol. You've taken it on board, despite the arrogant bluster. I can just see you passing it off as yours somewhere else.

It's like talking to Rachamim II.

 

[Peet]

Why are anti israeli folks always so personal and unpleasant?

 

[moono]

Anti-Zionists know that it pricks self-satisfied pomposity.

 

[Peet]

takes one to know one.

 

[CyberRose]

Does anybody have any more info on this Fatah al-Islam group? I've done a Google News search and out of 24 pages of news stories, 23 of the pages contain news dated 20th May and newer! The only other stories go back to April 23rd when Syrian forces killed 4 Fatah al-Islam members trying to cross the Syrian border to join the Iraqi insurgency (FaI's own words)

 

[Dhimmi]

Well FaI are a very new group, formed this year AFAIK so try;

http://yalibnan.com/site/
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17173.htm
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2007/03/f.html

The last one goes all the way back to March! Hope they help in some small way.

As a aside I'd like to ask folk to keep it polite, I know my endless neutrality are seen by some as being either supportive of zionism or jihadists, but that's their problem not mine. Regardless of faith we are all God's children, and it's time for us to work towards halting the killings and building a decent future for all.

I remain happy to embrace a peaceful Jew, Muslim or Maronite and think there's little point in replicating online the troubles that all our kin suffer. Let's use this venue as an opportunity to talk honestly, without repeating slurs or laying blanket blame. For me the beauty of the area known as the middle east, and the people therein deserves it.