Lebanese Christian Minister leader killed

[scott_forester]

Is there any good news in the Middle East, it's a great place I've been there several times for work. However, it does seem to be all doom and gloom

 

[UnderOpenSky]

why put a team on the ground in major harms way when you could use an apache ?

It would be a bit more obvious who did it.

 

[diego]

interesting stuff. Still don't see why no-one's pointing the finger at Israel though

There is a lot of things Israel does that they never have the finger pointed towards them for.
Why the hell are you so surprised on this one, or are you just pretending to be?

 

[moono]

Hariri was a multi-millionaire with a heap of business enemies. Why does this latest hit have to be political at all ?

Silencers ?

 

[JoePolitix]

I suppose "Christian" is one way of describing the Gemayels but I prefer the word "Phalangist".

The Kataeb Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kataeb_Party

Pierre Gemayel the Elder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Gemayel

Sabra & Shatilla
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_sabra_shatila.php

Exactly - but where in the western media is any of this reported?

We always have to put up with these drones about Hizbullah being a pawn of foriegn powers, being religious fanatics and oporating their own militia.

But what of the phalange with their ideology based on European fascism and the private militia they've had since the 1970's? They worked in conjunction with the Israeli army to butcher maybe 2000 men, women and children in cold blood at sabra and shatila. Poor little Gemayel junior was a senior figure in the movement at the time.

But because they represent white, priviledged, christian Lebanese and can currently be used as a stick with which to beat Syria we don't get told these things.

Hizbullah on the other hand represent poor, brown, muslim Lebanese and fight against the regional imperialist power so they are regularly demonised to the nth degree.

 

[Cid]

Syria's enemies keep getting shot in Lebanon. If this happened once or twice, naturally one would be inclined to blame Syria. But given that each time it happens Syria's standing in Lebanon falls, is it really unreasonable to suspect hands other than Syrian?

Incidentaly I liked Mr Bush's complaints that Syria was destabilising the democratically-elected government of Lebanon. Unlike your chums from Israel just the other week?

Syria's standing with the Christian right falls, I doubt very much an action like this going to turn Islamic Lebanon against Syria... There are plenty who have suffered from Phalangist/Christian leadership in the past and that resentment continues. It's a difficult one though, Israel has something to gain too - although they also have a lot to lose - the Phalangists have proved useful allies in the past. Israel attempting to blacken Syria's name by killing Gemayel could be profoundly stupid given the current political climate as it's a big morale boost for Hezbollah et al (and Israel is shite at prolonged warfare against guerillas). If Israel has designs on Lebanon it can't be purely through direct invasion, they will need a governemnt willing to work with (or, more accurately, for) them and it will need to be one with strong backing from the Lebanese. They may, of course, be trying to force a change in the Phalangist hierarchy but then Amin Gemayel would be the more logical target.

why put a team on the ground in major harms way when you could use an apache ?

Because then it would be fairly obvious that Israel was involved.

I fear that the assisination may have been carried out by elements of Syrian intelligence, who do not wish to see relations improve with the west together with Hizbollah who have stated their intent to bring down the current Lebanese government.

Yeah... Seems a distinct possibility.

 

[RhymnRzn]

This just in: due to an incapability of thinking of better things to do, the people who lay in wait to shed blood also practise deciet.

 

[JoePolitix]

We always have to put up with these drones about Hizbullah being a pawn of foriegn powers, being religious fanatics and oporating their own militia.

Although in the interests of balance its worth noting that there are similiar fascistic formations on the pro-Syria side:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Social_Nationalist_Party

 

[Dhimmi]

But because they represent white, priviledged, christian Lebanese and can currently be used as a stick with which to beat Syria we don't get told these things.

Hizbullah on the other hand represent poor, brown, muslim Lebanese and fight against the regional imperialist power so they are regularly demonised to the nth degree.

You are Dave Spart and I claim my fiver.

 

[rennie]

 

[nino_savatte]

Exactly - but where in the western media is any of this reported?

We always have to put up with these drones about Hizbullah being a pawn of foriegn powers, being religious fanatics and oporating their own militia.

But what of the phalange with their ideology based on European fascism and the private militia they've had since the 1970's? They worked in conjunction with the Israeli army to butcher maybe 2000 men, women and children in cold blood at sabra and shatila. Poor little Gemayel junior was a senior figure in the movement at the time.

But because they represent white, priviledged, christian Lebanese and can currently be used as a stick with which to beat Syria we don't get told these things.

Hizbullah on the other hand represent poor, brown, muslim Lebanese and fight against the regional imperialist power so they are regularly demonised to the nth degree.

The western media won't report it because they are in lock-step with their governments. The US wants to hit Syria and the press, for its part, are too fucking lazy to do any real reporting, so we get a narrativised version of the Lebanese civil war and of the life and work of the Gemayel family.

 

[nino_savatte]

You are Dave Spart and I claim my fiver.

Quoi?

 

[JoePolitix]

Here's Seumas Milne on poor little Gemayel and the political movement he represented:

The anti-Syrian protests, dominated by the Christian and Druze minorities, are not in fact calling for a genuine democracy at all, but for elections under the long-established corrupt confessional carve-up, which gives the traditionally privileged Christians half the seats in parliament and means no Muslim can ever be president. As if to emphasise the point, one politician championing the anti-Syrian protests, Pierre Gemayel of the rightwing Christian Phalange party (whose militiamen famously massacred 2,000 Palestinian refugees under Israeli floodlights in Sabra and Shatila in 1982), recently complained that voting wasn't just a matter of majorities, but of the "quality" of the voters. If there were a real democratic election, Gemayel and his friends could expect to be swept aside by a Hizbullah-led government.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7444

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's Seumas Milne on poor little Gemayel and the political movement he represented:



http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7444

Aye, the Gemayels are all scum and I see the news continue to portray poor wee Pierre as some sort of innocent victim who was kiiled because he was "anti-Syrian". Of course the nature of his anti-Syrian position is never once discussed in the news reports. As for the Druze...say no more.

 

[BigBoyJun]

We always have to put up with these drones about Hizbullah being a pawn of foriegn powers, being religious fanatics and oporating their own militia.

But what of the phalange with their ideology based on European fascism and the private militia they've had since the 1970's? They worked in conjunction with the Israeli army to butcher maybe 2000 men, women and children in cold blood at sabra and shatila. Poor little Gemayel junior was a senior figure in the movement at the time.

The militia of the Phalange party was disarmed 1991 after the Taef Accord. Hizbullah are the only armed group outside of the Lebanese Army in Lebanon. Pierre Gemayel was 10 years old when the masscres happened in Sabra and Chatila so I doubt he could have been a major player in the Phalange in those days.

But because they represent white, priviledged, christian Lebanese and can currently be used as a stick with which to beat Syria we don't get told these things.

Hizbullah on the other hand represent poor, brown, muslim Lebanese and fight against the regional imperialist power so they are regularly demonised to the nth degree.

I don't know how many Lebanese you know but you would find it quite difficult to tell Christian from Muslim Lebanese by the color of their skin, there are plenty of Red haired pale skin Shi'ites and just as many dark haired, dark skinned Christians.

 

[BigBoyJun]

Aye, the Gemayels are all scum and I see the news continue to portray poor wee Pierre as some sort of innocent victim who was kiiled because he was "anti-Syrian". Of course the nature of his anti-Syrian position is never once discussed in the news reports. As for the Druze...say no more.

It is true that members of the Gemayel family have been involved in unsavoury activities (please apply your own adjectives), however, I do not see how that seems to draw you to question whether he deserved to die since he was not "innocent". Innocent of what, what is the crime that he committed? It seems very obvious much like he was killed to put pressure on the government by removing or assassinating cabinet members to render the government impotent in order to gain more power for a radical army who have until now operated as a state within a state and to stop the UN tribunal into the murder of our ex-Prime Minister (a Muslim).

 

[moono]

The Israelis simply prevent the UN from investigating anything and that's the end of that.

 

[BigBoyJun]

The Israelis simply prevent the UN from investigating anything and that's the end of that.

Much Like Hizballah, Aoun and Lahoud.

 

[moono]

What do you expect, when the organisation has been subverted by America ?

Kofi's memoirs should make interesting reading, if he lives to write them.

 

[BigBoyJun]

What do you expect, when the organisation has been subverted by America ?

Kofi's memoirs should make interesting reading, if he lives to write them.

I am not saying you are wrong, but if you are right, why would Israel block the UN. That makes no sense.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I wouldn't get too chuffed about it. Could be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand de nos jours.

a more expedious cause of the first world war may well have been the bagdad to berlin railway which would have carried oil to the newly converted oil powered ships of the prussian empire which would then have broken the anglo-french strangle hold on shipping... one would have expected you to have been far more clued up... really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Railway


as for this it could be seen in the same light i guess but it's more likely to only further entrech hezb'allah.

 

[JoePolitix]

The militia of the Phalange party was disarmed 1991 after the Taef Accord. Hizbullah are the only armed group outside of the Lebanese Army in Lebanon. Pierre Gemayel was 10 years old when the masscres happened in Sabra and Chatila so I doubt he could have been a major player in the Phalange in those days.

I don't know how many Lebanese you know but you would find it quite difficult to tell Christian from Muslim Lebanese by the color of their skin, there are plenty of Red haired pale skin Shi'ites and just as many dark haired, dark skinned Christians.

Yeah, it wasn't one of my better posts I guess.

I think I'll stick to Latin American politics in the future

 

[nino_savatte]

It is true that members of the Gemayel family have been involved in unsavoury activities (please apply your own adjectives), however, I do not see how that seems to draw you to question whether he deserved to die since he was not "innocent". Innocent of what, what is the crime that he committed? It seems very obvious much like he was killed to put pressure on the government by removing or assassinating cabinet members to render the government impotent in order to gain more power for a radical army who have until now operated as a state within a state and to stop the UN tribunal into the murder of our ex-Prime Minister (a Muslim).

I never suggested that he "deserved to die". That's a rather simplistic and reductive reading of my post.

Btw, the Taif Agreement has never been fully implemented and the reasons for this are fairly obvious.

 

[david dissadent]

a more expedious cause of the first world war may well have been the bagdad to berlin railway which would have carried oil to the newly converted oil powered ships of the prussian empire which would then have broken the anglo-french strangle hold on shipping... one would have expected you to have been far more clued up... really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Railway


as for this it could be seen in the same light i guess but it's more likely to only further entrech hezb'allah.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Fucking funny youve really made me laugh.I guess youve never read Dreadnoughts by Robert K Massie, or anything by anyone about the era's naval balance. Read up on the Queen Elizabeth class the Revenge class and the Repulse and Renown to begin with, then run through the Hood class. All oil fired ships would have done is achieved parity with the Grand Fleet in terms of cruising speed, and it never ever could have matched them in terms of numbers.

Also could you tell me why the Tirpitz and Willhelm would have held the High Sea Fleet hostage to the political will of the Ottomans? (who could have cut of the oil?)

 

[cemertyone]

Yes, gotta love Hezbollah. Wonder if all the bleeding hearts here will still wave their Hez Flags high?


Divisive: You are showing both your youth and your lack of knowledge on the region. Lebanon is an artificial contrivance developed by the French, for the Phalangists. The country has had nothing but unrest ever since it was invented. Israel went north in 76 at the behest of that nation's sitting govt., nothing more, nothing less. By the way, Syria beat them there by a long run.

Oh jesus more revisionist shit from our man in the big apple....