Leaving Neverland- Michael Jackson Paedophile Doc

[andysays]

You can't separate the abuser from their talent or good works....

I'm not a fan of Michael Jackson's music, but I think it is, or should be, possible in many/most cases to separate the talent and the artistic creation from their behaviour or actions.

The problem in many cases with 'celebrity' it that it effectively transforms or seeks to transform a human being with some talent in a particular area into some sort of flawless hero without any human failings.

Maybe a more mature approach would be to realise that celebrities, however talented, are just human beings like the rest of us with human failings like the rest of us, sometimes, like MJ and those whose names will be and have been brought up as points of comparison, with really serious failings like sexual abuse of children.

But knowing that, eg, David Bowie slept with 14 and 15 year old groupies doesn't make me like his music any less or, IMO, reduce his talent and importance as an artist.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I'm not a fan of Michael Jackson's music, but I think it is, or should be, possible in many/most cases to separate the talent and the artistic creation from their behaviour or actions.

The problem in many cases with 'celebrity' it that it effectively transforms or seeks to transform a human being with some talent in a particular area into some sort of flawless hero without any human failings.

Maybe a more mature approach would be to realise that celebrities, however talented, are just human beings like the rest of us with human failings like the rest of us, sometimes, like MJ and those whose names will be and have been brought up as points of comparison, with really serious failings like sexual abuse of children.

But knowing that, eg, David Bowie slept with 14 and 15 year old groupies doesn't make me like his music any less or, IMO, reduce his talent and importance as an artist.

MJ is alleged to have groomed kids based on his celebrity and his massive musical appeal. He is alleged to have systematically abused them. Just like the paedophile priests who are reviled worldwide.
You think he will get a pass because of his music? Why? It was not lifesaving or socially progressive...was it?
He wasn't a brain surgeon saving lives...or a ground breaking physicist who discovered how to save the planet....
His music and his lifestyle were intrinsically linked. His life was a fucked up mess and it's ok to feel sympathy for his messed up childhood...but as an adult he knew what he was doing.
And ANYONE who grooms kids and abuses them no matter what "good" they do ... is still a paedophile and has messed with a child's life and fucked with their development through to adulthood and beyond.

 

[andysays]

MJ groomed kids based on his celebrity and his massive musical appeal. He systematically abused them. Just like the paedophile priests who are reviled worldwide.
You think he gets a pass because of his music? Why? It was not lifesaving or socially progressive...was it?
He wasn't a brain surgeon saving lives...or a ground breaking physicist who discovered how to save the planet....
His music and his lifestyle were intrinsically linked. His life was a fucked up mess and it's ok to feel sympathy for his messed up childhood...but as an adult he knew what he was doing was fucked up.
And ANYONE who grooms kids and abuses them no matter what "good" they do ... is still a paedophile and has messed with a child's life and fucked with their development through to adulthood and beyond.

I suggest you go back and read my post properly.

I never said he or anyone else "gets a pass", because of other stuff they've done.

What I said was that it should be possible to separate the art from the artist, and to appreciate the former even while recognising that some of the actions of the latter are indefensible.

 

[Micro]

I suggest you go back and read my post properly.

Actually, I think you need to go back and read Lupa’s post.

His music and his lifestyle were intrinsically linked.

I think she gets what you’re saying (it’s not very hard), but is saying that it’s not that easy because of the above.

I was a huge Louie CK fan but can’t bring myself to watch him now, and I think it’s for the reason Lupa makes; his work and his lifestyle were too closely linked.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

His music and his lifestyle were intrinsically linked. .

Yeah there isn't a neat way of dividing them. I would think listening to Earth Song knowing he was a predatory paedophile is pretty hard.

 

[Spymaster]

What I said was that it should be possible to separate the art from the artis ...

I disagree. That certainly hasn't happened with Gary Glitter has it? You and I may not think much of his music but he sold 20 million records and was one of the UKs most successful acts ever. His music was extremely popular but you never hear it now. The main difference between Glitter and Bowie is just that Bowie fucked older kids.

 

[Reno]

Yeah there isn't a neat way of dividing them. I would think listening to Earth Song knowing he was a predatory paedophile is pretty hard.

Listening to the awful Earth Song is pretty hard, no matter what.

 

[Reno]

Actually, I think you need to go back and read Lupa’s post.



I think she gets what you’re saying (it’s not very hard), but is saying that it’s not that easy because of the above.

I was a huge Louie CK fan but can’t bring myself to watch him now, and I think it’s for the reason Lupa makes; his work and his lifestyle were too closely linked.

I don't see how Jackson's life and music were that closely linked. He didn't write pop songs about the joy of raping kids.

Louie CK on the other hand made comedy out of the awkwardness that ensues in male/female relationships, frequently dealing with sexuality. He often thread a thin line of what was acceptable but always stayed just on the right side. When it was revealed that in his private life he overstepped that line, that was like a betrayal of trust when it comes to his work. As he didn't commit a crime as bad as what Jackson is alleged to have done, there could have been a point where he's forgiven but unfortunately he's been courting right wingers since.

 

[Wilf]

I suggest you go back and read my post properly.

I never said he or anyone else "gets a pass", because of other stuff they've done.

What I said was that it should be possible to separate the art from the artist, and to appreciate the former even while recognising that some of the actions of the latter are indefensible.

Depends what you mean by 'separate'. If that's some recognition that the actor, musician, novelist or whoever did good films, music and the rest, that's one thing. Actively buying it, listening to it, reading it is another. Suppose we will all have different 'red lines' depending on what crimes they've committed or how they've been unpleasant in other ways. Polanski made some great films, but I won't be watching any of them... but then I've not quite got to the point of never listening to Black Sabbath again now that 2 of them have been accused of dv.

 

[DotCommunist]

Morrisey went racist after he left the Smiths, which is a relief. And his solo stuff is shit anyway

 

[Argonia]

Didn't the woman who released the doves appear in Time Trumpet?

 

[tim]

David Bowie is the one that's always surprised me. He gets a massive pass on here because of some links to Brixton, despite being well known to shag 14 and 15 year old groupies back in the day.

His defenders will be out after you in a little while like a phalanx of angry Army ants. It's a good job you didn't mention Bowie employing Max Clifford as a pimp.

And of course sticky fingered restraunter and retired musician Bill Wyman married the 13 year old he groomed, which seems socially acceptable here in the UK.

Sticky Fingers, London - Restaurant Reviews, Phone Number & Photos - TripAdvisor

Review time?

 

[Rosemary Jest]

I'm disappointed every Christmas that we no longer get to hear the holy trinity of 'Rock n Roll Christmas', 'I Wish it could be Christmas Everyday', and 'Merry Christmas Everybody.'

The Wiizzard and Slade songs just aren't complete without the final piece of the 70's pub rock puzzle.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

What I said was that it should be possible to separate the art from the artist, and to appreciate the former even while recognising that some of the actions of the latter are indefensible.

Michael Jackson is not and never will be a historically remarkable artist. He wrote and performed 3 minute songs that possibly ran to 6 chordal variations with massive musical backing and orchestral accompaniments written by others.
He was not Mozart....or Michelangelo...He wrote and performed songs. Thats it.
He will not be remembered in 500 years time let alone 100 yrs time. Sorry.
Don't get me wrong...pop music is something people grow up with and become attached to...because music links to experiences. But if ...Michael Jackson is remembered it will probably for abusing little boys and the moonwalk. And in 100 yrs time nobody will remember him.

 

[andysays]

I disagree. That certainly hasn't happened with Gary Glitter has it? You and I may not think much of his music but he sold 20 million records and was one of the UKs most successful acts ever. His music was extremely popular but you never hear it now. The main difference between Glitter and Bowie is just that Bowie fucked older kids.

I would suggest that an important difference is that Bowie stopped before he was caught, whereas Glitter kept on with it for significantly longer.

Not that I'm seeking to excuse Bowie in any way

 

[andysays]

Michael Jackson is not and never will be a historically remarkable artist. He wrote and performed 3 minute songs that possibly ran to 6 chordal variations with massive musical backing and orchestral accompaniments written by others.
He was not Mozart....or Michelangelo...He wrote and performed songs. Thats it.
He will not be remembered in 500 years time let alone 100 yrs time. Sorry.
Don't get me wrong...pop music is something people grow up with and become attached to...because music links to experiences. But if ...Michael Jackson is remembered it will probably for abusing little boys and the moonwalk. And in 100 yrs time nobody will remember him.

Again, I don't actually care about MJ and I have e never claimed that his music has any value as art, I replied to you to tale issue with your general assertion that you can't separate the art from the artist.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Again, I don't actually care about MJ and I have e never claimed that his music has any value as art, I replied to you to tale issue with your general assertion that you can't separate the art from the artist.

I get that.
And I don't believe you can separate the artist from the person. They are intrinsically linked. The person is the artist. Not the other way round.

 

[Spymaster]

I would suggest that an important difference is that Bowie stopped before he was caught...

Well we don't know when or if he ever stopped, do we?

 

[DotCommunist]

his ghost could still be at it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was never an MJ fan but he was massively talented and influential. I wouldn't understate that.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Michael Jackson is not and never will be a historically remarkable artist. He wrote and performed 3 minute songs that possibly ran to 6 chordal variations with massive musical backing and orchestral accompaniments written by others.
He was not Mozart....or Michelangelo...He wrote and performed songs. Thats it.
He will not be remembered in 500 years time let alone 100 yrs time. Sorry.
Don't get me wrong...pop music is something people grow up with and become attached to...because music links to experiences. But if ...Michael Jackson is remembered it will probably for abusing little boys and the moonwalk. And in 100 yrs time nobody will remember him.

No significance whatsoever, other than the biggest selling album of all time

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Morrisey went racist after he left the Smiths, which is a relief. And his solo stuff is shit anyway

Southpaw Grammar's an amazing album. Not sure if he was racist yet or not...

 

[Baronage-Phase]

No significance whatsoever, other than the biggest selling album of all time

It won't be played in 100 years.

 

[andysays]

I get that.
And I don't believe you can separate the artist from the person. They are intrinsically linked. The person is the artist. Not the other way round.

Not sure if you're deliberately misrepresenting my posts or if you're genuinely incapable of distinguishing between two different things, but either way I have no interest in continuing to discuss this with you.

 

[Yossarian]

It won't be played in 100 years.

In 20 years, people will be saying albums are for old people. Or wait, maybe that's now...

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Not sure if you're deliberately misrepresenting my posts or if you're genuinely incapable of distinguishing between two different things, but either way I have no interest in continuing to discuss this with you.

No. I just don't accept that the person and the artist are separate. But it wasn't a row..

 

[Baronage-Phase]

In 20 years, people will be saying albums are for old people. Or wait, maybe that's now...

Ha.. true.

I really liked MJ and Bowie and many artists. But I can't look up to them in any way including enjoying their music once I know they fucked kids.
Others may feel differently.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It won't be played in 100 years.

You might be right about that. The stuff that endures is the stuff that gets rediscovered by each new generation, who find there to be something fresh and new about it. Jackson's 80s pop still sounds pretty fresh to me, but I guess you'd have to ask a 15-year-old to know how it's faring with the new generation. Gary Glitter, on the other hand, someone else who sold mountains of records in his day, sounds very dated to me. Would probably have died a death anyway.

 

[Reno]

I don’t see how anybody can state with certainty what music will survive. Frank Sinatra still gets played 70 years later and he would have been the Michael Jackson of his time.Motown was considered disposable pop and 50 years on is going strong.

 

[andysays]

Well we don't know when or if he ever stopped, do we?

The master troll always makes one fatal mistake...